Bloomberg Bans Clergy From 9-11 Ceremony – Pushes Ground Zero Mosque
Posted by Jim Hoft on Wednesday, August 24, 2011, 5:49 PM
Unbelievable.
New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg banned clergy from the ceremony commemorating the 10th Anniversary of the terrorist attacks.
FOX Nation reported:
Religious leaders are calling on Mayor Michael Bloomberg to reverse course and offer clergy a role in the ceremony commemorating the 10th anniversary of the terrorist attack on the World Trade Center.
Rudy Washington, a deputy mayor in former Mayor Rudolph Giuliani’s administration, said he’s outraged. Mr. Washington organized an interfaith ceremony at Yankee Stadium shortly after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.
“This is America, and to have a memorial service where there’s no prayer, this appears to be insanity to me,” said Mr. Washington, who has suffered severe medical problems connected to the time he spent at Ground Zero.
Bloomberg also spoke out in support of the Ground Zero Mosque.
ADVERTISEMENT
-
Featured Story:
YouTube Pulls Video of Trayvon Martin at Fight Club… But They Can’t Hide It Forever – Here It Is Again
Published May 22, 2012 at 5:04 am - 17 Comments
Mark commented:
Rusty, the hamsters aren’t running up to speed.
Oh, Mayor Turd For Brains, you may kiss my ass.
Taqiyyotomist commented:
Hey Mayor Bloomberg:
Big-a$$ earthquakes are very closely related to decisions like this.
Duck and cover.
Stanley Hess commented:
Mayor Bloomberg is an Jackass!!
bitterclinger commented:
He got his marching orders from the ACLU.
befuddled commented:
Aug 13, 2011 – NYC Mayor Bloomberg: Raise Taxes on Everyone.
Hobbitually conservative commented:
Mayor bloomberg makes makes lotsa money off them Islamists. He don’t wanna screw up his payday by reaching out to Christians.
Sharon commented:
Throw the idiot in the foundation! Where does he think he is…Iran? Afghanistan? Libya? No…he’s not…but maybe he oughta be!
Espresso Logic - The 6th Sense commented:
Blooming idiot is another lump on the dung heap of the LeftTards.
Hobbitually conservative commented:
How the hell did we start electing dictators?
Refresh commented:
Just another Kopo Jew selling out his people because of his business interest in the Islamic world. May God damn him hard and often. Amen.
MrGoodWench commented:
First Bloominidiot does not invite the first responders to the ceremony.
Then he bans clergy.
We all know that Obama and his vayjayjay ( VanJones) celebrate 9/11 as some leftist holiday for organizing .
But did y’all know that according to koran, if prayers of religions other than islam are offered at that spot, that spot becomes haram for building a mosque ?
Just a few dots …..
the real wow commented:
But did y’all know that according to koran, if prayers of religions other than islam are offered at that spot, that spot becomes haram for building a mosque ?
Just a few dots …..
True… what I can’t fathom is Bloomberg, a Jew, doing this. I guess it’s just the money
apodoca commented:
Bloomberg thinks the Muslims won’t kill him if he pushes their mosque and disdains the two major religions. Son, you’re a Jew. In Muslim eyes, there are no righteous Jews. They will kill you first just because you area Jew.
Wm T Sherman commented:
Does the mayor of NY get to determine this unilaterally? Nobody else has a say? How’s that work?
Raise hell. Make him pay and he’ll back down. He just wants to figure out who it’s most useful to pander to. Right now it’s his business partners in the Middle East. Increase the discomfort and he’ll change his mind.
mercador commented:
This should not scare the children of God , that are in Christ. No weapon formed against them shall prosper. Terrorist or anything.
MamaGrizzly commented:
Right–if they offer prayers other than Moslem prayers–no can build mosque.
Boomburg is just following his Dear Leader – OBAMA. NO FIRST RESPONDERS!! NO PRAYERS!!! And that’s an order.
signed,
the President–from his golf cart
RedBeard commented:
Michael Savage, a somewhat unpleasant man but one who is almost always correct, hit the nail on the head: “Liberalism is a mental disorder.” Bloomberg just proved Savage’s point.
There is no common sense in liberalism, no rational discernment of right vs. wrong, no ability to construct a logical progression from one point to another based upon factual information and past experience. All liberalism has to work with are emotion and feelings, both notoriously unreliable. The Law of Unintended Consequences is pretty much owned by mindless liberals.
RKflorida commented:
I guess NYC is no longer part of the USA. Clergy should attend in droves, carrying their bibles. Every Christian should carry their bibles. You know – the big 15 lb ones that are never read, but are family bibles with deaths, births, etc. recorded in them. Really BIG bibles.
Pitch anyone carrying a koran into the hole they created.
Carbon Pootprint commented:
Already planed on ignoring it this year after I read about the first responders being excluded.
psssst New York scum, the first responder are your last redeeming quality.
Havok commented:
Giuliani = America’s Mayor
Bloomberg = Tehran’s Mayor
dunce commented:
NewYork and bloomberg deserve each other.
MrGoodWench commented:
Wm T Sherman commented:
Does the mayor of NY get to determine this unilaterally? Nobody else has a say? How’s that work?
+++++++
Somehow I don’t think the mayor of NYC got to determine this at all.
He is just following orders from White House/ CAIR/Hamas cabal.
Lets go back all the way to 2008 to remember how Hussein really I mean really feels about 9/11, the first responders and paying tribute to the victims of islam:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1HIYGCu3zg
wtd commented:
The way I’m reading this, Bloomberg didn’t offer clergy a role in the ceremonies. Bloomberg has no ability to stop clergy from attending – nor does he have the ability to stop attendants from offering their own prayers despite this. The families who are in attendance have the ability to open the ceremony with prayers if they choose.
lol commented:
this loser is ok with the megamosque, but will not allow a priest, minister of rabbi to say a few words of comfort to the bereaved. when is he up for reelection this man has got to get voted out of office.
gee! commented:
Bloomberg is in bed with radical islamists , doesn’t want to up-set his radical friends, Bloomberg just like Soros have sold their souls to devil for love of money.
workingclass artist commented:
“He was administering the Last Rites to a fallen firefighter when he himself, was struck down. There was no priest available to give Fr. Mychal Judge the final sacrament of his faith. It was up to one of his own, a NYC firefighter, to give him a traditional Roman Catholic spiritual farewell.”
Bloomberg = F A I L
Another secularist slap to the faces of the faithful americans of many faiths.
sheik yer'mami commented:
Bloombugger is a bitter clinger: he clings to his billion dollar investments in Dubai and Bahrain.
Can’t let that go to waste.
The miserable SOB sold his soul to the Arabs…..
MrGoodWench commented:
I wish GWBush boycotts this ceremeony if first responders and clergy are banned
Lisa G in NZ commented:
follow the money = SHARIA FINANCE + Bloomberg
http://nosharia.wordpress.com/2010/09/09/billionaire-bloomberg-the-real-story-greed-and-shaia-finance/
http://www.automatedtrader.net/news/automated-trading-news/69599/bloomberg-launches-islamic-finance-platform-islm
“Michael Bloomberg the businessman is making sense. Dollars and cents. Millions of dollars and cents. Mayor Bloomberg and Imam Rauf are building Shariah bridges together.
Bloggers have uncovered that on Oct 29, 2009 Bloomberg LLC, the financial software, data gathering and news giant, announced its entry into the Shariah Islamic Finance industry. It would add Dubai as its eighth and specialized Islamic finance hub from which to sell its computer information terminals. Other hubs include: London, Sao Paolo, New York, San Francisco, Tokyo, Hong Kong and Sydney.
The regional head of Bloomberg LLC’s Middle East and South Asia centers, Max Linnington stated in October 2009:
“Particularly since the meltdown of the western capitalist system, there has been an increasingly large focus on the virtues of Islamic finance. Today, there is no one single provider of information that caters to the Islamic finance market. So by Bloomberg being here, we are in the process of building out an Islamic finance product. We are very confident that we can build a product that meets the needs of the market right now.”
Jayne on the left coast commented:
Got this bad feeling ‘progressives” aka Commies, are trying to rewrite 9/11. So say in twenty years it won’t even be a blip in the news. Or maybe they will change it to bad USA ,good muzzies.
ohiochili commented:
There are smarter heads on pimples than the one that sits on Bloomberg’s shoulders.
This is when everybody needs to get pen in hand, pick up that phone, and flood that office with letters, calls and emails demanding this fool reverse his clearly political banishment of clergy/first responders. The following is why.
9-11 death tolls include 343 New York City Fire Department firefighters, including one FDNY Fire Chaplain, Franciscan Fr. Mychal Judge, 23 New York City Police Department officers, and 37 Port Authority Police Department officers. Casualties of the 9/11 attacks also included 15 EMTs and 3 Court Officers. Approximately 2,000 first responders were also injured in the attacks.
This goes beyond outrageous. This is an atrocity.
Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg
City Hall
New York, NY 10007
PHONE 311 (or 212-NEW-YORK outside NYC)
FAX (212) 312-0700
E-MAIL:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/mail/html/mayor.html
Fuquay Steve commented:
Bloomberg & NYC deserve each other.
wewillneverforget. commented:
I hope the 9/11 families boycott along with the clergy, firefighters and police. Leave Bloomberg standing on the dias alone at HIS memorial. This is AMERICA’s memorial. Do an alternate memorial service with prayers, first responders, families of those murdered on 9/11 and do it all in front of the mosque..Screw Bloomberg and the ruling elites!
owl commented:
#32….”Bloomberg & NYC deserve each other.”
Correct.
Lisa G in NZ commented:
Mayor Bloomberg is heavily involved in Sharia finance.
tried posting links but my post was allowed (or I’m banned)
the evidence is out there in net land… search for yourself
he is PRO muzzie
Lisa G in NZ commented:
Mayor Bloomberg is heavily involved in Sharia finance.
tried posting links but my post was not allowed (or I’m banned)
the evidence is out there in net land… search for yourself
he is PRO muzzie
Lisa G in NZ commented:
(oops sorry for dupe)
Betsy Ross commented:
So let me get this straight. There will be no Catholic priest there to honor
Fr. Judge who died giving last rites to others on that terrible day?
That’s so sad.
Carbon Monoxide commented:
What would Dagger John do? (If you don’t know who I’m talking about, google it) Archbishop Dolan should lead a parade of NYC fire fighters, policemen and clergy toward Ground Zero at the appointed hour.
Another thought: remember the “Hard Hat Riot”? Mayor Lyndsey thought he could pull similar crap.
Steven C Jacobs commented:
May the spirits of all those murdered come to visit him nightly in his dreams so that he
wakes up exhausted and familiar with their unrest. May his meals be savored with the taste of ashes, so that he knows intimately the bitter taste of the innocent lives consumed by the searing heat. In the crowded city may he feel absolutely alone, so that he knows the desolation to a soul whose soul mate has been taken.
succotash commented:
God keeps perfect accounting records.
tommy mc donnell commented:
his obviously does a lot more business with the muslims than with other religions. i really think the people that responded to the trade center should hold their own memorial service someplace else and boycott the politicans event.
i haven’t been there since, but i was going to go this year. but now i doubt if i’ll be going.
tommy mc donnell commented:
the police, firemen, PA people, EMT’s, families of the murdered victims should ban bloomberg from their memorial.
Dr_Tumbleweed commented:
Reported in August, 2010
The mayor’s privately held company, Bloomberg L.P., has been increasing its revenue in the Middle East while its U.S.-based division has taken hits due to the country’s economic woes.
. . . .
In 2008, Bloomberg announced it was expanding its Dubai office into a regional hub, a move that sought to quadruple its local staff. The new hub will covers Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and Nepal.
. . . .
In March, the Khaleej Times reported that Bloomberg “has drawn up a five-year plan that will see it achieving a two-fold increase in revenue from the Middle East region by 2014.”
Part of that five-year agreement is the financial introduction and establishment of Sharia law in this Country.
Does anyone believe that Bloomberg will not do anything to further his Middle East interests?
Does anyone believe that Bloomberg will permit our Country’s established religions get in his way of appeasing his Muslim partners?
bg commented:
++
just a wee sample of much more..
We must note Ground Zero mosque’s hostile, provocative name
[“As a Muslim and as an American citizen, I hope that the U.S. government
will issue a decision to confiscate the funds designated for the construction
of this mosque, and to transfer them to a budget for rebuilding the towers
of the World Trade Center in New York, [and also to] ban the building of
[additional] mosques in the U.S., because there is no real need for them.
Also, [we must] take into account the danger that they [i.e. the mosques]
pose because they are hothouses for extremist terrorist ideology and for
hatred of the other, and because they carry out open missionary activities
considered a violation of the freedom and religion of others.”]
The Mosque at Ground Zero: Who Is Behind It?
[According to information, a scholar and charity head appointed to President Obama's White House Fellowships Commission is closely tied to the Muslim leaders behind this proposed controversial Islamic cultural center to be built near the site of the Sept. 11 attacks. The White House fellow, Vartan Gregorian, is president of Carnegie Corp. of New York.
Gregorian also serves on the board of the Sept. 11 Memorial and Museum. The museum is reportedly working with the American Society for Muslim Advancement, whose leaders are behind the mosque, to ensure the future museum will represent the voices of American Muslims.
"[The Sept. 11 museum will represent the] voices of American Muslims in particular, and it will honor members of other communities who came together in support and collaboration with the Muslim community on September 11 and its aftermath,” stated Daisy Khan, wife of the founder of the society and chairman of the of the Cordoba Initiative, Imam Faidal Abdul Rauf Khan, and executive director of the society.
The future Sept. 11 museum’s oral historian, Jenny Pachucki, is collaborating with the society to ensure the perspective of American
Muslims is woven into the overall experience of the museum, according
to the museum’s blog.]
The dissenter
[His mother complains that while the hijackers' faces and histories will be on permanent display "in a room of their own," visitors who want to learn about their victims will have to call up files at a computer station. Museum officials say, "We must tell the true story," she says. "My son is the true story."]
to be continued..
==
bg commented:
++
re: #45 August 24, 2011 at 9:15 pm bg continued..
American Muslim organization says President Obama is wrong
We must note Ground Zero mosque’s hostile, provocative name
please click on links & connecting links & scroll
up/down in threads for much more, thank you..
Obama quietly appoints Muslim Brotherhood to key posts
[Obama’s top national security advisor declared that the Muslim Brotherhood is a ‘secular’ organization, non-extremist, and dedicated to ‘peace.’ Obama himself, in an interview with Fox News’ Bill O’Reilly, refused to refer to the Brotherhood as an Islamic extremist organization, in spite of the fact that the group’s own charter, and recent statements made by its leadership, indicate exactly that.]
==
Auntie Em commented:
You will hate me for saying it…”They won.”
We are being completely demoralized, scrutinized, and ostrasized.
Now, for the punch line….
They will rule for a time and a half time…and then…The Prince of Peace.
Rock commented:
For all the 911 responders and your families, your actions that day and the the weeks that followed exemplified all that makes America special. That your unions have pushed the current crop of American hating POS to the forefront of our national leadership as undermined the sacrifices that you and your friends have made, I pity you for the wrongs visited upon you and yours by these corrupt pukes. But my heart bleeds for America. We on the Right do not hate the hardworking men and women that make up your ranks, but your union leadership is bad for you, us, and America, as Bloomberg has disgracefully demonstrated.
the real wow commented:
#33 August 24, 2011 at 7:58 pm
wewillneverforget. commented:
I hope the 9/11 families boycott along with the clergy, firefighters and police.
——
On the contrary. I think everyone who can should show up and PRAY … take a priest, rabbi, preacher, whoever with you and have them pray!!! The mayor was elected by THE PEOPLE and answers to them. THIS IS NOT HIS SHOW!!! We organized the tea party movement… we can organize OUR OWN memorial service – a day of remembrance!!!!
MAJ Mike commented:
May the cheeks of Bloomberg’s a$$ fuse shut.
bg commented:
++
re: #45 continued..
sorry, i really screwed #46 August 24,
at 9:16 pm bg post up, do-over here..
American Muslim organization says President Obama is wrong
[Mr. President this is not about religious freedom. It is about the importance of the World Trade Center site to the psyche of the American People. It is about a blatant attack on our sovereignty by people whose ideology ultimately demands the elimination of our way of life. While Imam Faisal Rauf may not share their violent tendencies he does seem to share a belief that Islamic structures are a political statement and even Ground Zero should be looked upon through the lens of political Islam and not a solely American one.]
Obama stacking the deck with islamists
[Abdul-Malik also makes no bones about discussing how the election of President Obama is a step forward in the project of Islamization and the long term goal of Islamist domination which falls right in lock-step with that of the Muslim Brotherhood as revealed in their manifesto.
[..]
“…even under the pressures that you and I know about, the deen of
Islam is growing because people see even within all of this struggle it is
better to be a Muslim under these conditions than to be a kaffir under
any conditions… before Allah closes our eyes for the last time you will
see Islam move from being the second largest religion in America-that’s
where we are now- to being the first religion in America.”
Obama quietly appoints Muslim Brotherhood to key posts
[Obama’s top national security advisor declared that the Muslim Brotherhood is a ‘secular’ organization, non-extremist, and dedicated to ‘peace.’ Obama himself, in an interview with Fox News’ Bill O’Reilly, refused to refer to the Brotherhood as an Islamic extremist organization, in spite of the fact that the group’s own charter, and recent statements made by its leadership, indicate exactly that.]
please click on links & connecting links & scroll
up/down in threads for much more, thank you..
==
wewillneverforget. commented:
@the real wow/#49
You are correct.. everyone who CAN get in should show up and PRAY and NY’s Archbishop Dolan should be leading the way.
Taqiyyotomist commented:
{Auntie Em}
The punchline’s the best part, no?
Taqiyyotomist commented:
I agree with those who say there should be a MASSIVE PARADE OF CLERGY.
This is an opportunity like NO OTHER.
—-
That is, for those clergy who still have an iota of faith, who still believe in Christ, and in the Great Commission.
I ASK YOU, NYC: ARE THERE ANY LEFT? BRING THEM.
Taqiyyotomist commented:
If you cannot, or are AFRAID TO, then I will ask that NYC prepare for more “unusual” earthquakes.
YOU ARE JONAH, CLERGY OF NYC.
worried commented:
When he pulls back the skys like a scroll even the unbelievers will know who he is. Only it will be too late and the Wrath will be unleased. Jesus is on his way to reclaim his Throne. If you think things are bad now just wait this is only the begining and people will be wishing that we were back in the days that we thought were soooo bad. We have squandered our Gifts God has given to us on our selfish ways. “It’s All About Me Days” are about to end and the real Truth is about to be revealed.
wewillneverforget. commented:
Ending Wednesday night off right.. with prayer for Mayor Bloomberg:
Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy Name. Thy kingdom come. THY WILL BE DONE, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And FORGIVE US OUR TRESPASSES, as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation, but DELIVER US FROM EVIL.
For Thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory, forever and ever. Amen †
ahem commented:
Everyone here should support the inestimable Pamela Geller at Atlas Shrugs who, almost single-handedly, has been fighting the cretinous Bloomberg and his plans to accelerate the building of the Ground Zero Mosque for the last few years. She’s providing the leadership, and she needs as many soldiers as she can get.
Who wants to be on the side of the angels?
Rock commented:
Elsewhere Bloomingidiot said there would be other times for 911 and others have a service. I truly believe the families of the victims would rather share that ceremony with the men and women who tried so desperately to save the victims rather than some swarmy low life muzzy kiss a$$ POS, who’s only god is money. Damn New Yorkers can’t you do better than him.
Joanne commented:
Bloomberg is a vile, evil piece of crap.
Reaganite Republican commented:
I hate this Dhimmi butthole lol
Mark S. commented:
I honestly don’t know what to say here… other than may be New Yorkers _should_ be wanting Mr. Baldwin in office now?
Molon Labe commented:
But Bloombrg lkoves to march in Gay Rights parades.
He is so gay.
BridgetGB commented:
Radical Islam Rising thanks to the uncomprehensible naivete and arrogant self righteousness of the ever clueless Left.
greenfairie commented:
If NYC ever gets attacked again, it won’t see a cent from me. Let Bloomie’s pals come rescue it.
bg commented:
++
DOJ Keeping Islamic Bank Settlement Secret
[The Justice Department has agreed to end its investigation into an
international financial network with ties to the Muslim Brotherhood
and a Saudi prince in a settlement in excess of $30 million, sources
tell the Investigative Project on Terrorism.
But DOJ officials refuse to release a copy of
the settlement or make any comment on it.]
==
bg commented:
++
#46 August 24, 2011 at 9:15 pm bg
#52 August 24, 2011 at 9:44 pm bg
#72 August 25, 2011 at 5:24 pm bg
Sojourner: “Islamic finance”
&
America: A Sharia-Compliant State
scroll for more @ link, and there’s still tons more..
==
bg commented:
++
Earth to Bloomberg et al:
‘Democracy and political Islam can’t coexist’
[“They don’t understand democracy. My devout Muslim parents and
grandparents understood Sharia. They understood that Sharia, while
it means God’s law, is actually man’s law – once it is implemented in
any fashion, it becomes man’s law.”
[..]
“We need to start having a conversation about what exactly we mean
by democracy,” says Jasser, a firm proponent of what he refers to as
“separation of mosque and state.”]
‘They Need to Be Liberated From Their God’
["I'm not trying to convert the entire nation of Israel and the entire nation
of Palestine to Christianity. But at least if you can educate them about the
ideology of love, the ideology of forgiveness, the ideology of grace. Those
principles are great regardless, but we can't deny they came from
Christianity as well."
[..]
“The problem is not in Muslims,” he continues. “The problem is with their
God. They need to be liberated from their God. He is their biggest enemy.
It has been 1,400 years they have been lied to.”
These are all dangerous words. Of the threats issued to his life by
Islamists, he says, “That’s not the worst thing that can happen to
you. I’m OK with it, I’m not afraid. . . . Palestinians have reason to
kill me. Some Israelis may want to kill me. My goal is not to defeat
my enemy.
It is to win over my enemy.”]
Son of Hamas, Mosab Hassan Yousef
==
shirley commented:
I am totally outraged that this country could let some dictator say CLERGY are ban from the 911 memorial to be held. What power does this demon Bloomberg have on this country. We have the right to have Clergy pray at the memorial. Let us all stand up for our rights that are being taken away. In God and his son Jesus, I trust and no others.
DMac commented:
This is a breath of fresh air for the many non-believers who will be in attendance on the day. It seems that every time there is a gathering of people, the assembly is forced to hear an advertisement for someone else’s imaginary friend. This might be the only thing the politicians get right about the memorial ceremony arrangements. They are to be congratulated for standing solid against the fanatics.
John H. Ward commented:
Wouldn’t it be great if the audience recited The Our Father at once sometime during the ceremony? Kinda like a praying Flash Mob !
John H. Ward commented:
Wouldn’t it be great if the audience and spectators all broke into reciting The Our Father at once? kinda like a praying flash mob !
David commented:
Good for him, all clergy will do is praise god in their speeches and try to convert people, there wasn’t only Christians that died that day just so you know, there was Jewish, Muslim, and even atheists that died, why should one religion have a right to speak about their faith as if all the dead were followers of it, i lost a great brother in T2 and he was atheist, he would be disgusted to know someone was trying to pimp his death with a religious speech. It should be about ALL the dead that day, not about political speeches and religious propaganda speeches like god has a plan blah blah blah.
leigh3 commented:
“according to koran, if prayers of religions other than islam are offered at that spot, that spot becomes haram for building a mosque ?”
Then how do you explain the churches, synagogues, temples & other places of worship that had been taken over by Muslims & converted into mosques?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_of_non-Muslim_places_of_worship_into_mosques
Banning prayers from clergy is beyond the pale, but this is not the reason that pathetic excuse for a mayor & human being banned them. There is some other nefarious reason why.
AvaGreen commented:
Bloomberg has financial ties (been approved by the to the Muslims and has dollars to make if he appeases them.
http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2010/08/bloombergs-quiet-investments-in-sharia.html
Citizen_of_America commented:
After this appalling announcement, how can any self-respecting person of Faith (except those whose faith is in the cult of muslim) or any member of any FD, PD, or other First Responder’s Union vote for the Blooming Idiot or anyone in his association (or is it a cabal)?
REMEMBER IN NOVEMBER!!
bg commented:
++
David #80 August 27, 2011 at 10:12 am
re: [try to convert people]
rotflmbo!!
oh btw: clergy is a generic term..
==