St. Louis County Police Chief: Arm School Personnel

St. Louis County Police Chief Tim Fitch says after the shooting last week in Newtown it is time to arm the teachers.
Local KMOX reported:

St. Louis County Police Chief Tim Fitch says it is time to talk about arming civilian school personnel following Friday’s massacre in Newtown, Connecticut, comparing it to arming airline pilots after September 11, 2001.

“I see it no differently,” he said. “Pilots have been armed now for many many years, we’ve not had another hijacking and the issue is, for the bad guy, he doesn’t know which airplane he’s getting on, if the pilot is armed or not.”

Fitch said the killing will not be stopped by legislation or laws. “If there’s somebody that’s really hellbent on doing something like this, they’re not going to care what the law is.”

Hat Tip Tony Katz

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  • Rock

    Armed school union thugs, what could possible go wrong?

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  • Sam Stone

    Not ALL teachers or even ANY teachers or administrators NEED to be armed in schools. Just the open knowledge that some, all or a handful COULD be armed would be enough to prevent SOME of these evil loons form plying their trade in evil.

  • aprilnovember811

    I pulled this from another blog.

    Call me crazy if you like, but I believe the shooting in AZ, and CT, were both orchestrated. It might be an ugly thing to hear, but I believe Obama, Ayers, Dohrn, the MB, and the UN are behind it.

    I think after Fast and Furious didn’t w
    ork to nab guns, they orchestrated the AZ shooting. When that didn’t work, they targeted children. We are normal people, and couldn’t concieve of doing something this evil. Ayers, Dohrn, Obama, and others aren’t. Remember Ayers said, “Kill you parents.” Remember also that he and Dohrn, praised Charles Manson for their killings, and called it cool.

    I think they’re so desperate to gain control of the population, that they are so desperate to nab guns, that they felt murdering children, would be what finally does that. We’ll see. It’s that gut feeling, that knot in the pit of your stomach that tells you something. Instinct, I guess.

    Just remember Hitler murdered 6 million Jews, and many others. I think Ayers and others have recruited both of these shooters, as their own suicide martyrs. I think in their minds, if the shooters implicated any of them, they would just call them crazy.
    Mrs. Kilkeary

    Libor scandal grows as the fathers of two mass murderers were to testify
    December 16, 2012
    By: Kenneth Schortgen Jr

  • Sam Stone

    #4, I had the same thoughts since the goal was not accomplished by Fast and Furious!
    I hope to hell I am wrong.

  • Nanna

    I agree that someone in the school should be armed.
    All of these leftists yelling for gun control seem to forget the Oklahoma City bomber that killed many children in the day care center. Not one gun was in sight anywhere.

    Where there is a will for mass murder, there will be a mass murder.
    This has been the rule for many many years.
    The morals of people is what we should worry about. People with good morals don’t commit mass murder.

    Don’t let Obama and the left disarm us.

  • John

    #3 December 17, 2012 at 9:32 am
    Sam Stone commented:

    Actually I doubt that it would prevent such attacks any more than any new laws would. But it would give people a fighting chance to stop it before it took too many lives.

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  • Comrade J

    It’s overdue.

    Related – the mom of the child with mental illness similar to Adam Lanza writes:

    “At the start of seventh grade, Michael was accepted to an accelerated program for highly gifted math and science students. His IQ is off the charts. ….

    I am sharing this story because I am Adam Lanza’s mother. I am Dylan Klebold’s and Eric Harris’s mother. I am James Holmes’s mother. I am Jared Loughner’s mother. I am Seung-Hui Cho’s mother. And these boys—and their mothers—need help. In the wake of another horrific national tragedy, it’s easy to talk about guns. But it’s time to talk about mental illness.

    This is why guns will not help. We must help her and her child.

  • Comrade J
  • ★FALCON★

    I’m typically not a conspiracy theorist, unless Democrats are involved, of course. And I recognize that initial reporting leaves alot to be desired.

    However, I’d like to know why the police were looking for a second shooter, wearing camouflage.

    Seems to me, and if I recall correctly and I believe I do – after Columbine the police made mention a third shooter wearing a black leather trench coat and a shaved head. This guy was described at about age 45.

    These reports may have been erroneous, however, after Oklahoma City we found out years later that John Doe Number Two was in fact Hussain Al-Hussaini, a member of Saddam Republican Guard. He disappeared for years and then he popped up.

    Interestingly enough – we never heard about Andreas Strassmeir again and he was clearly connected and that was uncovered by Jayna Davis.

    Here’s nice little tid bit – March 11, 2011, – 2:15 pm
    Homeless Muslim Arrest Revisits OK City Bombing Islam Connection
    Over the years, Muslims have pointed to Timothy McVeigh’s bombing of the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City as evidence that non-Muslims commit major terrorist attacks against America. Anti-Christian bigots have also used it to make similar points against Christians, even though McVeigh was–for all intents and purposes–an atheist. But, as Oklahoma City investigative television reporter and author Jayna Davis has pointed out over the years, McVeigh was repeatedly seen with an Iraqi Muslim, Hussain Al-Hussaini, believed to be a then-agent of Saddam Hussein or some other anti-American Muslim force.

  • Joe Mama

    Hell, I’d bet there are a bunch of capable retired folks, curently licensed under their states law, that would volunteer in a heartbeat.

  • babeola

    Let’s introduce a new bill in the Missouri house to provide free tuition to all military person (those who have never taken medication or had any mental issues) forced to leave due to budget cuts. Let’s train these folks to be our kids teachers and let them be the natural protectors. We’ll instill some discipline while also providing protection.

  • Comrade J

    Former NYPD Detective – repeal “gun free zones”

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  • BarbaraS

    #13 Can’t do that. Those ex-soldiers would never get with the union program.

    I don’t know that arming teachers would work. Lanza killed everyone in the office first from all I have read and when entering the classroom killed the teacher before he killed the children. Even if the obams agreed to arm the teachers, they would probably put the caveat that the guns be locked up so how could the teacher get the gun in time.

  • More gun control or banning guns will not solve the problem when the underlying cause of such violence is mental illness. If a gun isn’t available there are countless others ways to murder. Our country has turned it’s back on the mentally ill. Families are helpless to get them help without consent of the courts or the mentally ill person. This is what needs to change.

  • SomethingWicked

    I don’t’ believe that the school administrators (Principals, VP, clerical) are covered by the teacher’s unions. Whomever we arm (and I do believe we should have someone armed in every school, theater, mall, public assembly location) there needs to be proper training associated. Let’s not just put in Barney Fife rent-a-cops so that people “feel better”. We need someone armed and capable of providing an armed response to a potentially deadly intruder while having the sense to know when deadly force is justified and warranted.

  • Flintstone F.

    Principals and assistant principals should be able to say: “Yes, I am also a Deputy Sheriff.”

    A little training would go a long way. The principal at Sandy Hook and other teachers were more than capable of taking action and they did. They didn’t have the tools they needed to get the job done.

    The tragedy wasn’t due to an abundance of guns. It was due to the lack of guns and lack of help for people with severe mental illness. And like everybody here knows CT already has the bans on guns, the meddling do-gooders in congress are talking about.

  • Look-Out

    That’s a connection to consider: BOTH fathers of the shooter in Aurora, Colo and this Conn. shooter were to testify in that Libor case. Billions of dollars involved with numbers of international banks. (aprilnovember’s post/link)

  • Patty

    Yes and lock down necklace worn by principal, that will lock automatically all classroom doors. But truthfully there will be those who are so intend on doing horrible things.

    Training of staff and alarm system and possible guards because this has happened to often and is scaring our children. We must make them feel secure. And good parenting is of the utmost importance. Talk to your child and listen to their day.

  • babeola

    #16 – you get my point exactly. Re-tooling a portion of our ex-military will help to break the iron grip the unions have, but we also have to pass right to work in Missouri.

    If the principal had been an ex-Marine (male or female) with an M4 sitting in the office, that Lanza kid would never have made it out of the office.

  • Patty

    I hope that the public will listen and take the Chief comments seriously.

  • YourMaster

    oh my god… they finally figured out the root cause of the problem with school shootings …after only 500 or 600 massacres…

    The reason is EVERYBODY at a school is totally unarmed and defenseless…. if even 1 of the 6 teachers that died in the adam lanza massacre had a gun on hand….
    they could have stopped adam lanza from killing over 26 people – and some of the teachers wouldn’t have just had to fling themselves in front of the children with their own bodies to save them if they had a weapon of equal stopping power to defend themselves.

    reality is no doubt some people or children may have died that day….
    there are always going to be some casualties when an incident like this starts…
    but I’d rather risk having only 2 deaths… then someone manages to shoot and kill the killer
    than risk people being entirely defenseless with no guns and ending up with 26 deaths.

    why do you think these types of people don’t attack a military base, or a police station ever?

    has there ever been an outright attack at a police station? …it would be stupid to attack both armed with deadly weapons and decently trained officers…. especially at a source where there are 50-100 and they outnumber the killer.

    so instead of gun control…. hahaha… the republicans should pass the opposite…
    (just to piss off the libs) …but they are right when it comes to this… these things are far less likely to happen if murderers know there are no area’s where people are completely unarmed and defenseless… sure it’s still going to happen every now and then.

    …but it will be difficult to takedown 20-30 people when most of them can retaliate with a deadly weapon in return.

    …libs are too retarded and have ulterior motives for wanting 2nd amendment rights taken away… especially freedom of speech …as the facts always tend to be against them and on the opposite side.

  • valerie

    There are some really good suggestions here, and as for me,

    As far as I am concerned, schools can stay “gun-free zones” — as far as the kids are concerned. Those charged with protecting them, however, are in a different category. It seems beyond foolish to me that some people continue to fail to make that distinction.

    The best, most functional education system in this country right now is the US military. I believe the way they teach and motivate young adults is applicable to children, because I have had the pleasure of watching a Marine teach in an elementary school. They are charming, and they know how to make lessons memorable. Such a person, with continued and and appropriate training, would be useful in an emergency in any school just as they are valuable in every other walk of life.

    Any adult on a school campus carrying a deadly weapon had better be well-qualified and trained, and emotionally stable, and subject to regular re-qualification and scrutiny.

    We need to learn how to spot potentially violent people as they start to spin out of control, and get them effective treatment. In the process, we will encounter people who are just marginal, or shy or subject to adult misbehavior. Compassion toward them and intelligent treatment of their troubles might put a stop to developing trouble.

    There are people who have been studying this problem in detail for years, and it is time to consult them. If we let ourselves be diverted into a stupid political discussion over banning weapons that haven’t even been used in these cases, we will never 1) deal with the root causes of these events, or 2) do the effective things to stop an event once begun.

    We have had NO deaths from fires in schools over the last 50 years. Our firefighters may have something to teach us about deterring violent attack, as well.

  • mark1973

    Yes,Yes,Yes ! Finally some sanity in the discussion over Firearms!

  • ohio
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  • valerie

    #22 December 17, 2012 at 11:10 am
    babeola commented:

    If the custodian, or any one of the teachers, or any other person regularly on-site had access to a real weapon, the delay in the office and the warning through the public address system would have given them precious time to grab it and put a stop to the attack.

  • shadow

    Call me crazy if you like, but I believe the shooting in AZ, and CT, were both orchestrated. It might be an ugly thing to hear, but I believe Obama, Ayers, Dohrn, the MB, and the UN are behind it.

    I like!

  • shadow

    Just the open knowledge that some, all or a handful COULD be armed would be enough to prevent SOME of these evil loons form plying their trade in evil.

    If someone’s plan includes offing themselve as a final act, I don’t think the possibility of having it done for them would be much of a deterent.
    (See Suicide by cop)

  • CT

    Re: “Put Metal Detectors And Cops In Schools”

    I do not do Facebook (never will) and I seem to be having problems responding to Dick’s request for comment so I will attempt to do so here.
    The school shootings are an absolute tragedy, restrictions on assault rifles and the like may well be appropriate as they have been for years on machine guns. I do not find it acceptable however to surrender our American culture by teaching our children they will only be safe under lockdown with an armed guard. Metal detectors and armed police in our urban schools today are a reminder of a failed urban culture. What kind of a world do we want to present to our children, freedom with law and order or an armed camp hiding behind a door with an armed guard?


  • Comrade J

    Interesting to notice.

    Aurora shooter, gave himself up when the men with guns showed up.

    This shooter shot himself when men with guns showed up.

    It’s almost like there is somekind of a trend here… (sarc off)

  • shadow

    All of these leftists yelling for gun control seem to forget the Oklahoma City bomber that killed many children in the day care center. Not one gun was in sight anywhere.

    And now the sale of ammonium nitrate is regulated.

  • FurryGuy

    #34 December 17, 2012 at 11:47 am
    shadow commented:

    CT has some of the most stringent gun laws in the nation, and yet it didn’t stop someone intent on stealing guns to perpetrate a crime of violence.

    Yeah, keep enacting more laws that criminals will only ignore so they can terrorize and prey upon law-abiding citizens. Yeah, keep enacting more laws so politicians can show “they care”. Forget that there are already laws on the books that go unenforced.

    You might want to go to see an orthopedic doctor, your knees are worn out from being reflexively jerked repeatedly.

  • Servo1969

    A gun-free zone is a murder-zone.

    When I see a gun-free sign this is what I hear: “Dear homicidal maniac, We certify there is no one inside this facility who can meet you with any real force. You have about ten minutes or so to kill as many people as you can. Signed, The Management.”

    I talked with a man the other day and he said “Well, you can’t have security guards in every school.” I said ‘guards? You don’t need to employ guards. What’s wrong with all the other people in the school? The teachers, principals, vice-principals, janitors, lunch ladies, office workers, councilors, and others? These are grown men and women. If they chose to get a CCW they should be allowed to pack. There should be guidelines for carrying on the job in a school not laws prohibiting it.”

  • Comrade J

    @34 “shadow” continues to split atoms with his/her mind. look “shadow” squirrel over there…

    What do you expect from a libtard? To admit that murderers do not need guns?

    The libtarded UK idiots found out that after banning guns, murderers still murdered. They just used other tools. Result, in 2010 alone 6 knife murders a week on average.

    The idiots’ solution? Idiots wanted to Ban kitchen knives. [I don’t think it passed].

  • Servo1969

    So many people want to live in The Shire where wolves are outlawed.

    “No wolves here, Thank you. Why, we don’t even need to know how to repel a wolf attack. And anyway we have people to do that if it ever comes up.”

    But wolves do not disappear just because people make it illegal to be a wolf. And then, one day, a wolf is sniffing at your door…

  • oldguy

    Wait! Are you saying there should be guns allowed in school? Fancy that!

  • First Solution – What We Should Do Immediately to Our Schools to Make It Harder for the Shooter to Be As Successful

    First Solution – More Control Over School Access and How to Pay for It – Upgrade all elementary and middle schools to restrict access through doors and windows by replacing all entry doors with steel doors, good electrically controlled locking system, glass should be bullet proof, and if glass is broken out, the entry size prevents a person from going thru the opening. All classroom doors should be upgraded to metal doors, with narrow, bullet-proof glass and electronic locks that close and lock doors with the push of a button. Buttons are on the walls in rooms, and central buttons controlling all doors at key locations in the school. Hallway buttons are covered by glass, like a fire alarm. Doors can always be opened from the inside to allow teachers and students to flee. All paid for by a new School Safety Tax placed on all firearm sales and ammunition sales, video games that depict violence and movies or TV shows that depict gratuitous violence and shooting. A detailed description of depicted violence that is covered would be developed. The tax would be added to movie tickets and paid for by TV show producers to allow them to include such violence in their show. Normal depicted gun use by criminals, police, military soldiers, hunters and self defense would not be taxed. The tax would be also be applied to shooting things like zombies or stick figures in video games. Gratuitous shooting of human like targets would be covered by the tax. These games give high score awards to the person who kills the most victims….. sense a theme there? The tax might be set at $1 per ticket at the movie or higher if the movie is excessively violent, $10 per video game sold even on the iphone and ipad, $100,000 per TV show produced that included such violence.

    In each school deciding to implement this controlled access policy would be voted on by the parents of the children attending this school, and only if they had a 51% parent’s approval would this policy be implemented.

  • Second Solution – A Trained School Staff Response Team – Each school should ask the staff if they want to volunteer to be part of a trained team to deal with any shooter who gets in the school. Only those teachers who volunteered would be required to participate. Assuming enough staff agrees to participate, the parents would again be asked to vote to approved taking the next step. Once they pass background checks, mental evaluations, then the school staff, including teachers, custodial staff, administrators and secretaries who had volunteered to be part of an emergency response team would undergo extra training, drills and practice to be ready for such events in their facility. If any of these team members including teachers or school staff members wants to volunteer to be an armed defender, they go through extensive background checks, mental evaluations and special training in active shooter defense and tactics. These trained and qualified school staff should then be offered a custom-built electronically controlled gun safe in their room that only allows access when an electrically controlled lock is released by a security code. All of these weapon safes should be hardened, bolted into the floor and wall, and have built-in noise, video and motion detectors to immediately detect any tampering or attempted access by unauthorized person, sounding an alarm in the room, and throughout the building. This would prevent theft or unauthorized access to these emergency weapons. These teachers could be allowed to have immediate access to a handgun and/or a shotgun or both in their in-room safe. All staff training, electronic safe technology and weapons would be offered and installed for free at the school facility. Paid for by a nationwide tax on ammunition and gun sales. In Israel all teachers are trained and issued a military assault rifle, kept in their classroom, to allow them to provide protection for their students.

  • shadow

    (and I do believe we should have someone armed in every school, theater, mall, public assembly location)

    Are you suggesting we add 200-250K new employees to the federal government? Weren’t you all just complaining about the size of government as it is?

    Or are you suggesting an unfunded mandate?

  • To Create any Real Solution, You First Must Accurately Define the Problem

    In the next few months or years, there will be many laws proposed and discussed to ban certain types of weapons, number of rounds in a clip and many more restrictions known as Gun Control Laws, but in each of these discussions, the following base set of facts should be stated.

    First – What Are Some of the Possible Characteristics of the Future Mass Murder Shooter We Plan to Stop With More Laws

    The assumption is we are going to create a new set of laws to prevent or stop a person who is typically an insane and very evil person, who may or may not have identifiable personality disorders, who is willing to lie to everyone, even on FBI background check forms, who is expecting, or even hoping to die at the end of their crime by suicide or by fighting with the police. They are planning to break every law they need to break to commit their crime. They are intent on killing as many innocents as they can, as fast as they can, or as slowly and patiently as they are allowed by the lack of any armed resistance to stop them. Therefore the shooter will pick a location where he believes all the law-abiding victims will be unarmed, a gun free zone, and this shooter will also pick a place where they believe there will be no armed security staff to shoot back to prevent the shooter’s entry.

    Typical location they will choose will be a school, mall, office, church, park, entertainment event or trade-show. They have no background problems or issues that would prevent them from buying any weapons being sold, or they plan to steal their weapons from someone, even going as far as shooting their own mother in the face, so they can steal that person’s weapon. In most cases these killers violate 20 to 50 existing laws during the commission of their crime, so what additional law would prevent them from being successful.

    Second – What Role Does Becoming Famous Have in the Shooter’s Motivation to Kill As Many Innocent People They Don’t Even Know.

    The shooter’s motivation is almost always to become famous with a horrendous crime that will be covered by all the news media with day after day of full 24 hour TV coverage. Small murders of one or two people won’t create this fame. It takes a lot more deaths, as many as possible.

    Third – Are We Ready to Consider The Influence of Violence Portrayed in Video Games, TV Shows, Movies and on the Internet

    Are we willing to put restrictions on acts of violence in movies, music, on TV, on the internet or in all types of video games to reduce the new numbness children have for violence, death, guns, weapons and killing that are portrayed in these various formats.

  • shadow

    Forget that there are already laws on the books that go unenforced.

    What law went unenforced, in this instance?

  • Fifth – Do Restrictions on Certain Types of Weapons Guarantee the Shooter Won’t Choose a Different Weapon to Complete Their Mass Shooting

    You can buy a pouch for skeet shooting that holds 25 to 50 shotgun shells. You can buy a good new shotgun for shooting ducks for as little as $400. You can take that pump shotgun, load 5 shells, and reload from your pouch as often as necessary. Given this firepower and 50 or 100 shells, you can shoot 100 people quickly and most if not all will die from their wound. So without any new assault weapons, these crimes will be committed with old guns purchased before the ban, or with other approved weapons, like a five-shot pump shotgun and a gun fest with pockets full of easily available shells you can buy at any Walmart. Reducing clip limits will have no real impact unless you can collect all existing clips, including those sold illegally. NOT POSSIBLE. You can buy 50 clips with 10 rounds, fill your pockets and kill many people with a 2 to 3 second clip change. First graders are not going to rush the shooter while they are changing clips.

    Sixth – We Must Also Consider Solutions that Reduce the Number of People Shot

    Solutions that reduce the number of those killed should also be considered, since in an open society, the elements of deception and surprise may allow the criminal to start shooting, but if the solution can reduce the access to more victims or allow the potential victims access to self-defense weapons to make it harder for the shooter to continue their crime without facing armed resistance.

  • Glass doors can be covered with balistic laminates for a small cost. See more here: For a cost of less than $10,000 all exterior glass doors could have been laminated and stopped the shooter’s access to the inside of Sandy Hook. If he had been locked outside all those children would be alive today.

  • shadow

    Result, in 2010 alone 6 knife murders a week on average.

    And yet the homicide rate is at a 30-year low, which means any increase in knife murders are more than offset by the decrease in firearm murders.

    What do you expect from a libtard? To admit that murderers do not need guns?
    Nice straw man, but no one was arguing that murder requires a gun. On the other hand, do you deny that a gun is a more effective weapon for mass murder? How many theater-goers do you think would have been killed or injured had Holmes carried knives instead of guns?

  • shadow

    If he had been locked outside all those children would be alive today.

    Does that put an end to recess/PE?

  • SomethingWicked

    #42 In the case of the theater, mall, public assembly location it would be paid for by the business that run the facilities, just like they pay for janitors, maintence personnel etc. Sure the price may be passed on to the consumer or businesses in the mall (and eventually consumers) but it is no different than paying for trash removal or mall upkeep, that is passed on to the consumers too. In the case of schools I would first advocate training for existing staff. If not possible, then perhaps qualified volunteers (parents that have had proper training) and failing that then yes paid security, off duty police preferably. I don’t see any Federal involvment at all.

  • SomethingWicked

    It may be possible that we need to rething our paradigm. For years and years Americans were taught that in the case of a hi-jacking, ramain calm, give the hi-jackers what they want and eventually you will be back on the ground and released (planes don’t fly forever)
    All that changed on 9-11. Now we rush and subdue would-be hi-jackers, hit them with anything you have on hand. Our current school paradigm is shelter in place, lock the door. This succeeded in providing this shooter with large numbers of easy to find targets all grouped together. I don’t think running screaming in a mass hysteria is the solution either. Perhaps re-enforcing the doors and windows is an answer. Maybe we need to look at the way our schools are designed to see if there is a way to more quickly get those inside out of harms way. If we are going to contiune to shelter in place, then the shelter needs to be more secure. Lets look for real solutions for the problem.

  • shadow

    #49 SW

    So you envision 50 different laws in 50 states all mandating security for private venues and supplying it for the public sites, either by volunteer (try to get insurance companies to cover that) or by hires?

    Then you have to ask, at what resolution does this end. Does every stand-alone Wal-Mart, grocery store, drug store, convenience store, require an armed guard?

    If nothing else, it would be a boon to the unemployment rate.

  • Comrade J

    “And yet the homicide rate is at a 30-year low, which means any increase in knife murders are more than offset by the decrease in firearm murders.”

    That presupposes that the ASS-umption, that there would not be homicide rate decline without the gun ban. There is no evidence to confirm your ASS-umption. In fact the evidence is in the opposite direction. Which means the violent gun homicide rate would have been even lower if the guns were not banned.

    Thanks for playing libtard.

  • Comrade J

    County Police Chief is correct, the only way to stop this madness is to allow all willing school personnel be trained and armed.

    *Consider Aurora shooter chose the movie theater because it banned CC.

    *Aurora shooter gave himself up when confronted with armed men.

    *Newton shooter shot himself when he heard armed men coming.

    *Newton also choose the “gun free” aka Mass Murderers Welcome zone.

    In face of these facts it would appear libtards are WANTING mass murder to continue.

  • sez_me, Andy

    I’m glad to see some real solutions and common sense here. I hope big media outlets will pay attention to some of these comments. Thanks to the Gateway Pundit for publishing this and thanks to St. Louis County Police Chief Tim Fitch for sharing your thoughts.

    12/16/2012 (tonight’s speech)
    President Obama said we can’t tolerate these evil acts anymore….we can do better. YES, we can arm more of our good citizens and leaders….to be capable of stopping this kind of abhorrent behavior aimed at our innocent men, women, and children. If we are not capable and strong enough to stop those who would do us harm, we are standing by as observers….watching and cowering from the very people who are the problem. Rather than allow them to go forward with ill will, it is time to put a stop to their actions—at least they can be challenged sooner with a chance to end their horrific intent. Think of the lifesaving response a First Responder can offer. First Aid can save lives when extreme harm is inflicted….and similarly, a quick response can stop extreme harm from continuing. The term “gun violence” is often used to demonize guns but the real demon is the use of violence to do evil. Inasmuch as knives, fists, clubs, and fire are used to cause harm, the harmful action is what needs to be stopped. Violence may be squashed if more people were capable of stepping up….with equal or greater force. Do we stand by and watch evil-doers or stand prepared to step in and stop those who would do evil?? _______*Andy*

    The adults who had charge of the kids are said to be heroes but sadly, they were all killed. None of them had the means to protect themselves or stop the shooter. We CAN do better. We MUST have a fighting chance to do better—train the teachers, train the bus driver, train all of the school staff to use firearms, stun guns, pepper spray and other means to stop an attack, or at least interrupt an assault. Allow trained adults to carry weapons specifically for protecting the school, the students and themselves—threats may still exist but an attack could be minimized…and our heroes may live to protect more of the students.

    I think the same applies to theater employees, bank employees, church staff and elders, grocery workers, post office workers, etc., etc. …. and if necessary, every law abiding citizen. I’d rather live with the potential for unintended consequences than allow the potential for merciless slaughter. **Andy**

    The “news” media uses tragic stories like this for sensationalism …and they can’t wait to get the facts before spreading stories like wildfire. Many “facts” first reported turned out to be wrong—the shooter did not have an accomplice, his mother did not work at the school and she was not killed there, the boys father was not shot or killed, the shooter was incorrectly identified and his poor brother was blamed. The classroom of students who were killed turned out to be First Graders, not Kindergarteners. Now we’re being told that more gun control laws are needed to protect society from gun violence–how naïve. This is how the masses are influenced to give up their rights to protect themselves and other innocent people. Don’t believe everything you are being told, especially by those who seek to take away your rights. I can agree that more gun control would help, because too many of us are not allowed to control our guns. Some say that there are more guns than people in the U.S. and that is a problem—the only problem with that is; law abiding, decent citizens can’t access a gun when they truly need one.

  • shadow

    That presupposes that the ASS-umption, that there would not be homicide rate decline without the gun ban. There is no evidence to confirm your ASS-umption. In fact the evidence is in the opposite direction. Which means the violent gun homicide rate would have been even lower if the guns were not banned.

    I ASS-umed nothing. I stated straight facts. While the number of knife murders may have increased, the overall homicide rate has gone down, which implies a decrease in murder by gun. I never suggested there was a cause and effect.

    You, on the other hand, are the one with all the ASS-umptions.

    1) You ASS-umed that in increase in gun ownership caused a decrease in crime in the US, and that there would be no decrease in crime w/o the increase in gun ownership … basically doing exactly what you had accused me of.

    2) You ASS-umed that crime trends in the US would necessarily be reflected in the UK.

    3) You ASS-umed that the gun ban caused the increase in knife murder while having nothing to do with the overall decrease in homicide.

  • shadow

    *Consider Aurora shooter chose the movie theater because it banned CC.
    ASS-umption. You have no idea WHY the shooter picked the theater.

    *Aurora shooter gave himself up when confronted with armed men.
    ASS-umption. He was apprehended by his car in the parking lot, after the shooting was over. You have no reason to believe that he would not have surrendered to police even if they were not armed, or whether he would have given up in the theater if confronted with an armed civilian.

    *Newton shooter shot himself when he heard armed men coming.
    Ass-umption. You have no way of knowing what promped him to turn the gun on himself.

    *Newton also choose the “gun free” aka Mass Murderers Welcome zone.
    ASS-umption. Again, there is no reason to believe choosing the school had anything to do with is being a “gun free” zone.

    There’s a little saying about glass houses and throwing stones you may be interested in.

  • Comrade J


    LOL. Little advise. It looks poor on you to deny that you ASS-ume nothing and proceed to prove it by regurgitating the same ASS-umed opinions as proof when they have already been disproved. Things don’t change because you said ‘it ain’t so’. Though I understand it’s a very libtardian thing to do to regurgitate one’s opinions Ad nauseam in hopes of them becoming a “fact”.

  • Look-Out

    #42 December 17, 2012 at 12:37 pm
    shadow commented:

    (and I do believe we should have someone armed in every school, theater, mall, public assembly location)

    Are you suggesting we add 200-250K new employees to the federal government?

    See how the private sector never occurs to some? It’s government – they’ve got the answers! – all the time.

  • Comrade J

    Specifically for libtard “shadow” since apparently s/he needs to be pushed into every pile of libtardian manure of good intentions in order to even recognize the consequences. Here is the PARADISE s/he wants here.

    The trail blazing UK held the distinction of having the toughest firearm restrictions of any democracy and their 1997 handgun ban became the “gold standard” of gun control.

    How has that UK gun ban been working?

    In the four years from 1997 to 2001, the rate of violent crime more than doubled. Your chances of being mugged in London are now six times greater than in New York. England’s rates of assault, robbery, and burglary are far higher than America’s. 53 percent of English burglaries occur while occupants are at home, compared with 13 percent in the U.S., where burglars admit to fearing armed homeowners more than the police.

    Gun crime is up by more than half and there are more than 100 serious knife crimes each day, with fatal stabbings having reached the highest level on record.

    So after the gun ban of 1997, gun violence (gasp) increased.

    Now this year there has been a decline in violent crime (lowest in 30 years) this year. Predated by an actual uptick in both knife and gun crimes. Since the dip predates the gun ban and there was an uptick since the gun ban (1997) until at least 2009, it is logical to conclude that the gun ban had nothing to do with the current lull in the violence.

    But guess what? they banned “combat” knifes in 1997 as well how did that work out?

    In 1997, there were 200 homicides involving “sharp instruments” – knives and bottles…. In 2005, of the 820 homicides in 2005 in England and Wales, 236 – or 29 per cent – were with a knife or other sharp instrument.

  • shadow

    Here the claim, Comrade. Point out the assumption.

    While the number of knife murders may have increased, the overall homicide rate has gone down, which implies a decrease in murder by gun.

  • Comrade J

    “While the number of knife murders may have increased, the overall homicide rate has gone down, which implies a decrease in murder by gun.”

    As demonstrated above, both gun ban and knife ban were followed by a significant increase in violence in both (gun crimes going to twice the rate as before). It is only recently [after 2009] there is a lull. So something else happened outside gun/knife bans of 1996-97, that influenced the decline.

    Your assumption therefore that bans reduce the crime rate are plain wrong. They have been wrong in both the guns area and knifes.

    Here is the Brits report on knife crime. (click on PDF) .

    Page 5, chart 1 shows that the homicide rate has not really changed since the ban – in fact it’s been creeping up.

    Page 6 chart 2 shows the overall proportion of violent crimes since the ban – same story.

    Now remember that the gun rates (illegal, since they were banned also) increase also.

    So much for gun/knife ban.

  • NoResolution

    It works for Israeli armed teachers. They haven’t had an incident since 1974. Thailand teachers too. They are threatened all the time. But is that the answer here? Probably not. Security? Yes.

  • Fortune

    School teachers are union, so they’re your typical dumb union sheep who always vote Democrat and have been brainwashed into hating The Second Amendment like good little comrades. I doubt you could get any to carry a gun. They wouldn’t know the difference between a BB gun and shotgun.

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