Florida Church Vows to Burn Korans On 9-11; Receives Death Threats (Video)
Posted by Jim Hoft on Saturday, August 21, 2010, 4:45 AM
A Florida Church announced that it will go ahead and burn several copies of the Koran on church property despite being denied a city permit.
City officials are worried about violence.
Already two signs have been ripped down by vandals and the church has received several threats.
(What a shock!)
…But they’re going to go ahead with the burning anyway.
FOX News reported, via Free Republic:
Florida church that was denied a permit for its controversial plan to burn copies of the Koran on Sept. 11 says the book burning will continue anyway.
The Dove World Outreach Center drew international attention after announcing its plan to burn copies of the Islamic holy text on church grounds to mark the ninth anniversary of the 9/11 terrorist attacks.
Gainesville city officials denied a burn permit for the center Wednesday, saying an open burning of books is not allowed under the city’s burning ordinance.
But in an e-mail sent out later that day, the church said, “City of Gainesville denies burn permit — BUT WE WILL STILL BURN KORANS.”
“Things like 9-11, Fort Hood, and the honor killings… these are possibly not isolated incidents,” Dove World Outreach Center pastor Terry Jones told MyFoxOrlando.com last week. “These are things that, if we don’t stand up now, they can increase.”
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Subadar Lal Kukhri commented:
Free speech!
Granny commented:
This is the United States of America. The congregation of this church is just as entitled to hold a Koran BBQ under our Freedom of Speech as the muslims are to build a mosque at Ground Zero under Freedom of Religion. Freedom of Religion does not trump Freedom of Speech.
Wading Across commented:
Ya know, this is certainly free speech, but it’s dumb. It’s just as much in poor taste and incendiary as the Cordoba House trying to get built near Ground Zero.
Moreso, it reflects poorly on that church, their witness, their evangelism, and Christians in general.
He’d have much more traction if he’d preach an apologetic sermon or have an apologetic seminar on that day denouncing Islam and/or comparing Islam to Christianity and showing the differences and errors as wel as pointing out how the actions of those on 9-11 were certainly in line with Islamic beliefs.
Erik commented:
They should say that they do it to promote peace and understanding, and that anyone disagreeing with them needs sensitivity training.
Wading Across commented:
I have two copies of the Quran at home. As well as a summarized hadith. I also have them on my computer. My own personal little dig in my own home is to leave the books on the floor every now and then or to take them into the bathroom to read – that got a mortified look from a Muslim once.
I’ve thrown the Book of Mormon away once or twice, the second time because I already had a copy and I don’t intend on giving it away. And eventually I may do the same with my copies of the Quran.
But burn them? There’s no reason to be purposefully meanspirited. Be a stumbling block because you shine the truth, not because you’re a jerkwad.
Iconoclast commented:
I would prefer to see them pulp this trash and process it into something more appropriate – toilet tissue comes to mind.
Once must ponder the odd coincidence of the official concern of violence arises only when conservative AMERICANS wish to make a dramatic demonstration of their views. We saw untold numbers of illegal aliens demonstrating against “racists” suggesting laws be upheld, we saw courts and law enforcement protecting the despicable scum of the Westboro Baptist Church, but let anyone speak out against those causes dear to the hearts of the leftist traitors and we hear “concern about violence” mantra.
Some pigs are more equal than others – and our internal / external enemies, which are so beloved of the leftstream medaia, thus tacitly acknowledged to be more prone to violence.
Robert commented:
I can’t help but think that a permit to burn crosses or U.S. flags would be approved forthwith.
reliapundit commented:
they’d protect the bookburners if they were abortionist/atheists burning bibles or aclu-ers burning the us constitution!
Khan Krum commented:
It’s funny how we can always count on the back water good ole boys to stand up when others have completely lost contact with their balls!
“If defeated everywhere else, I will make my stand for liberty, among the Scots-Irish in my native Virginia”. — General George Washington
Granny commented:
Wading, you are starting to sound like an apologist.
When I was a girl, my mother and I had a running discussion that is most applicable to this situation. I would say “Mom, can I go to the store?” and Mom would reply “You CAN go, but you MAY not.” Can implies ability. May gives permission.
Now, this is the United States of America and this church CAN burn all the Korans it wants to under the premise of Freedom of Speech. It does not matter if they are wise to burn Korans or if there is a “better way” or some method of protest more politically correct. Burning the Koran, just like burning the flag, is protected speech – and they CAN. In just exactly the same way that the Cordoba House Initiative can build a mosque at Ground Zero despite the objections of more than 65% of all Americans. Under Freedom of Religion, they CAN.
Freedom is not freedom when conditions are set around it. Freedom of speech does not require that the speech not be offensive to others or that it meet some standard. Just as islamic demonstrators are entitled to hide themselves behind face coverings and carry signs that say “Behead those who insult islam!”, the members of this church are entitled to burn the koran – even if the national guard must be called out to prevent a riot. That is what freedom is about.
None of which is to say that either this church or the backers of the mosque at Ground Zero are wise in the course they are following.
Deeka commented:
This is a bad idea. As Granny states, “can” they? Sure.
I would be as uncomfortable with this in my church as I am with the destruction of the Bible by another religion. I have to agree with Wading: it reflects poorly on this church and on Christianity in general.
Granny commented:
Deeka, I’m withholding judgement as to whether or not this is a bad idea. I’ve been thinking for some while that we have been far too polite for far too long. Perhaps it is time that a small taste of their own medicine be delivered.
One must not demand freedoms that one is not willing to extend to others and islam is not willing to extend ANY freedoms to those who are not muslim. Just try to visit Mecca, bring a Bible to Saudi Arabia, or conduct mass in the Hagia Sophia, the oldest church in Christendom.
Granny commented:
Oh, and as far as those who wail that this isn’t very “Christian” I suggest that you reread the bit about Jesus’ assault on the moneylenders.
a commented:
I don’t know that they’re well advised to do this; it’s the kind of small spark that can turn into a conflagration. Just like the mosque: it’s legal, but is it right?
Wading Across commented:
To Granny, thanks, I do see myself, or at least hope to see myself as an apologist for Christ, certainly not for Islam. I’ve been studying off and on about Islam for ten years and even did a couple of stints in overseas summer mission among Muslims. You are correct. Can and may are two different things. There is such a thing as cause and effect too.
I don’t think this particular church is thinking thing thru. They’re being reactionary and intentionally childish. One wonders what they really hope to accomplish, or think they’ll accomplish by doing this?
To Deeka, that’s my point too, about reflecting. Moderate Muslims can say that fundamentalist Muslims do not reflect their Islam, “true” Islam. But they do – and of course there is support for it in their scriptures. The same can be said of Christianity. When you have abberant sects such as the Westborough Baptists or even mainliners like the liberal Episcopalians or Methodists, they all reflect on Christianity and the Church’s witness as a whole.
We are to be salt and light, witnesses and preachers. Yes, we can be angry, and yes we can defend ourselves, but we must not let our anger cloud our judgement nor our priorities. God comes first, then family, then country.
Too many conservatives who call themselves Christians I fear are putting country before God in this debate and struggle against Islamism on our shores.
Andreas K. commented:
Burning Old Glory is fine. Burning American citizens is fine. But burning the one book that has more hatred inside than Mein Kampf is bad?
Without the koran there wouldn’t have been 9-11. Yes, it’s that simple.
Maybe this action isn’t in the best spirit of Christianity. Maybe, I don’t know, and frankly I don’t even care.
It’s time that the west strikes back.
How long are we going to take the abuse coming from the mohammedans? Look into Europe, I dare you. Mohammedans just need to pout at whatever they want and the media and the politicians double over hell bent on making sure the screaming babies get whatever they want.
Saying something against that is racism and makes you a nazi in Europe these days.
Why do you think Geert Wilders is becoming more and more popular, all across Europe?
Because more and more people in Europe are sick and tired of this pre-emptive surrender. Because more and more people in Europe are sick and tired of islam. Yes, despite the media and our politicians trying to sell us the fairy tale of a moderate islam people are rallying against islam.
Burn the koran?
Why not? What makes it so special? Why shouldn’t we burn it? Out of respect? Respect for what? Respect for a fascist ideology that hides behind the shield of religion? An ideology that, without this shield, would be banned right away in all civilized countries?
Burn it I say. This book deserves no respectful treatment. It’s as vile and full of hatred as Mein Kampf.
And Mein Kampf is banned in Germany and Austria…
Granny commented:
Wading, if history proves nothing else, it proves that there is no ONE “Christian” church. And just as there is no one Christian church, there is also no one Christian conscience. What may be perfectly normal and acceptable to a Catholic can be grievous sin to a Protestant – and it is all down hill from there.
The bottom line is this: when the disciples asked Jesus what would be the signs of his return the very first thing he said was “Watch that you are not decieved!” It is not your place or mine to dictate individual Christian conscience.
Some things are clearly “not Christian” – but this is not one of them. This is a political statement taken in defense of their religion, a religion that for decades has been under assault in schools, in the media, even in “art” with abominations like “Piss Christ.” We are told to put on our armor and fight – Onward Christian Soldiers! Well, this is THEIR war. You fight yours. Let them fight theirs.
Dan S commented:
I am guessing that outdoor barbeque events are permitted in Gainsville. Rather than make it a formal “Koran Barbeque,” they should hold a good ol’ rib barbeque social and use pages from the Koran as firestarters if they want to play the statement game… and maybe have the rest of the pages for TP in the Port-a-potties.
Else I’m with the “can” and “may” crowd. I don’t think this is appropriate for a church, though I’d be all for some secular group doing it.
Wading Across commented:
Granny, we’re not Christ. Christ did not sin in his anger. And his actions against the moneylenders was quite calculated.
Can we say the same for ourselves?
http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=334
Let us not sin in our anger and actions or reactions.
Ruebacca commented:
it’s still a free country.
Jerry Haberer commented:
I disagree with almost everything written in the Qur’an. I have read it but I would not burn it out of spite for the minority of Muslims who are associated with terrorism. Burning the Holy Book of another religion accomplishes nothing but to show one’s own intolerance and hate. Like the Bible. the Qur’an represents FAITH and BELIEF. No one I know has the inside track on absolute truth.
StandUp4Chuck commented:
Every time I take a piss I turn to the east in the direction of Mecca. Are they going to declare jihad against me?
Arch commented:
Although I have no respect for islam as a religion/political system, it’s just as sacrilegious to burn a koran as it is to put a crucifix in a jar of urine. I consider burning the American flag highly offensive. People who act in this manner do not gain respect; they lose it.
I have a suggestion, one that may actually have the positive effect. The muslims want to build their monument to the 911 hijackers. We want it built elsewhere. There is a group of people who can stop this outrage in its tracks – Union Labor.
Write to:
President, NY State AFL-CIO Building & Construction
Mr. Edward J Malloy, Trades Department,
890 Third Street,
Albany NY 12206
Email: edwardjmalloy@gmail.com.
Greater New York B.C.T.C
Gary LaBarbera, President, T
71 W. 23rd Street
New York, NY 10010
Email: bctcnyc@aol.com
Don’t get ulcers; give them!
bill-tb commented:
Should we ask Imam Obama what he has to say?
I love beer summits.
Andreas K. commented:
Jerry, the koran represents only one thing: kill the infidels where you find them. That’s in it. That’s the order. That’s what every mohammedan must do. Why? Because Mohammed, who is considered to be the perfect human being in islamic mythology, wrote it down. Because the bloodythirsty idol called allah told him so.
If supporting burning something like that makes me intolerant, so be it. Then I’m intolerant. And I don’t care. Islam is intolerant to the bone. Islam is hatred on a level worse than the Nazis. Why should I be tolerant to that?
By the way. Faith and believe? That’s no argument against burning it. There were people who prayed to Hitler. Not for him. To him. There were people in Nazi Germany BELIEVING that Hitler was second coming of Jesus. It was their FAITH.
As for calling islam “religion”… don’t make me laugh.
Andreas K. commented:
Arch
August 21st, 2010 | 6:25 am | #24
Although I have no respect for islam as a religion/political system, it’s just as sacrilegious to burn a koran as it is to put a crucifix in a jar of urine. I consider burning the American flag highly offensive. People who act in this manner do not gain respect; they lose it.
—————————————
Uhm, you do realize that the leftsits and mohammedans don’t respect any of us in the first place, right? So what’s there to lose?
Nothing. Absolutely nothing.
If they could they would kill all of us right now, even without burning that stupid book.
Why? Because we’re infidels. We are already committing the worst possible crime under sharia law: we refuse to follow allah. That crime is worse than murder, worse than rape, worse than genocide.
It’s sacrilegious? I piss on islam. I piss in the koran. Now what? What’s the islamic moon deity going to do about it? Nothing.
Tolerance is a bad thing. Look at the roots of the word. Latin for “to endure”. Sorry, I’m tired of enduring. It’s time to strike back and speak with them in the only language they understand: force.
Wading Across commented:
Granny, we’ll all face the Lord one day and have to give an account of ourselves. While it is true that some things are fluid: wine for thee but not for me; some are not
: thou shalt not murder . It is the core, orthodox doctrines which make us all one in the body of Christ who call ourselves Christians. And in that respect, there is only One Body, One Church. It crosses denominational lines.
I am not dictating any person’s conscience, but I am certainly urging caution, reflection and prayer as well as common sense. It’s a fine line between righteous indignation and sin.
Personally I daily battle the idea of wanting to be a pacifist on the one hand and wanting to thump some heads on the other.
Granny commented:
Wading, it is not your business as a Christian to judge whether or not the actions of this congregation are sin, absent some clear violation of the Ten Commandments. Judge not. . . . . casting the first stone and all that jazz.
If you believe it to be sin, then for you it is sin and you should refrain. This pastor and this congregation must be given the benefit of the belief that they are in at least as good a standing with Christ as you are and that they are undertaking this after long thought and prayer. If it is not sin for them, then far be it from us to criticize. . .
Arch commented:
Andreas K:
Stopping the building of this mosque would be the best revenge here. They care about that.
Andreas K. commented:
Let me add this:
Most of you people don’t see the “joy” islamic “enrichment”. I see it on a daily basis. And I’m sick and tired of it. Every day it’s on the news. Mohammedans assaulting our police officers. Mohammedans raping our women. Mohammedans murdering our people. Mohammedans stealing our money. And when we say something against it, the media and the leftist are all over us screaming “racist!” and “nazi!”
Our crime rates are exploding, thanks to them. But we have to be tolerant. We have to live with it. We have to endure it.
And this has been going for years.
My patience is slowly but steadily coming to an end.
Come to Europe and see it with your own eyes.
You’ll have a different point of view afterwards.
Granny commented:
Wading, pacifists allowed 12 million people to be slaughtered during WWII for the crime of being born “other.” Good “Christians”, most of them were.
And then there were those who put on their armor and went to war to stop it. . . .
Something tells me that the heroes who did their little bit to end the abominations of Hitler have a much better welcome waiting them than those who wrung their hands & pretended not to see.
Andreas K. commented:
Arch
August 21st, 2010 | 6:37 am | #30
Andreas K:
Stopping the building of this mosque would be the best revenge here. They care about that.
———————————————-
Then the media and the leftists will scream “racist!” again and everyone will be quick to make sure the mohammedan crybabies will get what they want.
It’s happening here on a daily basis.
Take the Swiss ban on minarettes. The majority of the Swiss people was for it and at once the islamic world screamed murder and the rest of Europe quickly joined them.
Talk I hear from the UK and the Netherlands speaks already of armed resistance. Yep, in the liberal Netherlands a growing number of liberal Dutch people are thinking of picking up arms against this nonsense. Same in the UK. Similar things I hear from Germany where secret police reports leaked to the public suggest civil war, thanks to the mohammedans.
But let’s be tolerant, eh?
Andreas K. commented:
GrannyNo Gravatar
August 21st, 2010 | 6:39 am | #32
Granny, that was a direct hit.
Pacifism has never stopped fascists. Chamberlain went all pacifist on Hitler, what was the result?
It allowed Hitler to build up his military might and to occupy two sovereign nations before the war even started.
Pacifism works only if everyone’s a pacifist.
A mohammedan following Mohammed’s orders won’t be impressed by it. He’ll just kill you and rape your wife and daughter, after which he’d enslave them.
expat commented:
This is a dumb and childish move because it gives stealth jihadis one more grievance to take to our own appeasers. It does not project self confidence and principles. Protests against the GZM need to be more intelligent, and they can be. This has all the earmarks of the feel-don’t-think maneuvering typical of leftist activists. We can do better.
Arch commented:
If you want to do something positive and you agree with this church, get a weapon and drive to Gainesville and help this guy protect his church.
I will not be there.
Granny commented:
Expat, that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. At least this week. Not taking an action because you think it will give the muslims cause to complain virtually guarantees that you’ll be bowing to Mecca before you can spit. If they do not have “cause” to complain, they will find cause and if they cannot find it they will invent it as they have done innumerable times previously. If you don’t understand that, then you understand nothing at all.
neomom commented:
Granny/Wading across. Great discussion! A fine example of intelligent people debating a sensitive subject.
My take is this. If you want to bait the violent whack-jobs to commit violent acts, that’s how you do it. Just understand that IS what you are doing. It may seem cute, fun and controversial, just understand it’s not like wearing a anti-abotion T-shirt to a high school. They will kill you. Are you prepared to protect your flock Rev? Are you armed? Do you have guards at you church? Do you have a good fire suppression system? I personally do everything I can do to disparage the society of Islam. I also have enough weapons and training to overthrow a small country. Can you burn Korans? Yes, you can. Should you? That’s up to you.
Wading Across commented:
Granny, I understand your position and to be sure it is something I consider and reflect on as well.
But as an aside, the rebuttal about judge not, lest you be judged is often over used and incorrectly.
We are called to have a spirit of discernment and judgement. If something is wrong, it is right to call it out.
Judging based in pride, sin, and what the individual deems as correct is wrong.
— And yet Granny, the Gospel is spreading like wildfire through Africa, China and even making its way into the 10/40 Muslim world without violence.
Yes, there are times when Christians need to stand up. And there are times when they should lay down.
Is this church in Florida right to do this? Perhaps, but it makes my heart groan, just as surely as it does when I see “God Hates F**s” or such individuals protesting at our soldiers funerals. Is Westborough wrong? If it is not sin in their eyes, then far be it for us to criticize, eh?
Arch commented:
Andreas K:
To paraphrase Eva Peron, We are all racists now!
Espresso Logic - The 6th Sense commented:
I keep a copy of the koran in the bathroom. I’m wiping my way through it – one page at a time.
Robert commented:
This ideology is NOT a religion, it is a totalitarian regime of world domination. The terrorists are the front-line soldiers, receiving widespread financial and theological support. The rest submit to the dictates and profess piety while murder and mayhem are waged on behalf of world domination in their name.
This tyranny would only permit religions to exist as subservient, second-class citizens, and paying extra taxes.
To Wading Across, it seems as if you are not only preaching pacifism, but trying mightily to convince others to be so as well.
We’re all well aware of the Christian message of tolerance and good faith. Do that for too long, and you end up in bondage, or dead.
Ken commented:
Arch
August 21st, 2010 | 6:25 am | #24
There is a group of people who can stop this outrage in its tracks – Union Labor.
Labor unions by definition hold out for more pay, they will eventually build it. Labor unions support the democrat party, who in turn support the moslems and sharia law. Don’t put any faith in the unions to do the right thing, they’ll disappoint you.
We all need to fight this attack on whatever front is available to us. This 911 victory hamosque is no different than a dog pissing and marking its territory.
If the moslems get their way burning flags will be the least of our problems.
Granny, thank you for your insight.
JR Dogman commented:
This is a great idea. Yes, it’s a crude gesture to burn Korans; but Islam is hardly a refined faith. The majority of its followers are neither respectful nor tolerant of those of other faiths, and so they do not deserve our kind treatment.
As for the rare “moderate” Muslims (isn’t it sick that there’s such a term in common use? Sick, that we get excited when we hear a Muslim come out and call a terrorist organization a terrorist organization), I feel for them. It would be wonderful if Islam could be reformed as they hope, but I have my doubts, as for such to happen, Muslims worldwide would have to repudiate much of the Koran and the Hadiths. I myself am an agnostic; I practice no religion. But I know faith is important to most people. So, if moderate Muslims seek to maintain a relationship with God, perhaps they might find fulfillment by converting to Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, or Buddhism — to any religion that does not divide the world into a House of Believers and a House of War.
Though in fact, a lot of moderate Muslims are already doing just that. We may not hear about it much, but the rumblings are there: conversions out of Islam are on the rise, and the trend looks only to increase. And no wonder: It must be a terrible burden for many Muslims, to feel obliged to hate and wage eternal war against non-Muslims in the name of God; and they must feel such tremendous relief, when at last they find a gentler, more personal and spiritual way to worship.
Granny commented:
Wading, on that final day when we each stand before our Maker, each of us must answer for our own actions.
I am a firm believer in discernment – and not so much of a one in “judge not.” I prefer “cast not the first stone.” However, it is not for YOU to judge the time when someone else must either stand for what he believes or turn his cheek. That judgment is yours to make only for yourself, absent some clear violation of the ten commandments.
I do not agree with the Westborough Church on virtually anything – but I will fight to the death for their inalienable right to “speak” as they please.
aro5o75 commented:
GREAT.!!
I want to donate to the church
Ken commented:
expat #35
WRONG- They are coming at us from so many directions we can’t even comprehend all of it – leaving us completely on the defensive.
Simply by their death threats they have taken a defensive position. We must be more aggressive.
But, don’t think if we just protest the hamasque, and show tolerance then we can all live in peace. They won’t allow it.
FU*K OBAMA commented:
Burning a korans will show the tolerance of those who follow ‘the religion of peace’.
wtd commented:
Just a suggestion, but I hear pig manure is high in nitrogen and potash, while the
ash byproduct of this koran bbq supplies additional potassium and minerals. Turning the doctrine of this death-cult into life can be done by building up the churches garden soil with a special blend of bbq compost.
Consider starting a compost pile for use next spring to start a lovely garden.
Ken commented:
And it will be fun to watch the liberal media fall all over themselves trying to defend the religion of peace practitioners.
Arch commented:
Ken:
Union rank-and-file in NYC is already threatening to refuse to work on this mosque. Of the 2,800 who died in the WTC, lots of them were union members – fire fighters, police, janitors, service workers even the airline crews. It will be easier to convince the union leadership than it will the actual hammer operators.
BTW: Don’t get the idea that I can’t or won’t defend myself; I fought in Vietnam. I’ve been out in the man cave doing some reloading. I had to take the 87 pieces of 40 caliber S&W once fired brass out of the tumbler and replace them with M2 Ball for my M1 Garand. I have a concealed carry permit and I’m always armed usually with a Model 1911.
daryl commented:
Somewhat off topic but I’ve found that most things that pertain to muslims and korans also apply to our prez.
What did they expect? Bed bugs, fecal matter, cocci, book burning, etc. are all present since this administration came into power. What third world paradise is complete without these things? We’re just running true to form here in the good ol’ USA.
Will bacteria count beach Barack Obama? – BostonHerald.com
http://www.bostonherald.com/track/inside_track/view/20100820will_bacteria_count_beach_barack_obama/srvc=home&position=2
KR commented:
Education is a mighty tool. Wake up to the realities of Islamists and even moderates:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxFzFIDbKpg&feature=player_embedded
Ken commented:
Arch, I thank you your service to our country. I have no problem with most union workers. However, the thug leaders are in it for money and power and they will find workers if they have to get anti-american or just simply hungry people to build it. Do you think that is a possibility? Would union members stop them from working? I don’t know, I’m asking?
noislamocommie commented:
It’s not a religion its a totalitarian system.
The Elector of Saxony commented:
“Come to Europe and see it with your own eyes.”
Andreas, our media hides the situation in Britain and in Europe from us. During the Islamic insurrection in France, the media here reported “unemployed French youths are burning cars in the suburbs of Paris”. The murder of Theo Van Gogh was only reported on through the blog communities, and of course, anytime Geert Wilders or the BNP are mentioned…you guessed it. Nazis.
Individual Americans are smart, but collectively we are quite stupid. We are already allowing our borders to be overrun in an invasion that is destabilizing the economies of our Southwestern states, turning vast swaths of America into 3rd world hellholes that resemble Somalia today more than they do Houston or Los Angeles of 30 years ago. Yet, almost half of us mumble some nonsense about fairness and equality, and hope and pray that things will get better, and if they don’t? Well, we’ll get a taco while Rome burns.
Islam is coming in what can only be described as the second arm of a pincer movement, and yet even our conservative party wants to mouth the platitudes of “religion of peace”, equality, justice, diversity, freedom of religion, blah blah blah.
Our media is helping by hiding the fact that Islam is imposing its will on Europe and Britain so that we won’t insist upon stopping it here. I don’t care what my Lefts masters say, Islam is a barbaric, backward, vile tribe of people who should be kept away from us by any means necessary.
Jack Okie commented:
JR:
A most insightful post. Thank you.
Although raised in a Christian environment, I became agnostic in college because intellectual honesty seemed to demand it. Later in life I realized that there is a great deal of ambiguity in all of life, including the so-called hard sciences. So I am now a Methodist, which seems a good fit for me.
If you are not familiar with Oriana Fallaci, I strongly encourage you to check her out. A journalist, committed atheist, Italian partisan in WWII, fierce opponent of all tyrants: (From Wikipedia) “During her 1979 interview with Ayatollah Khomeini, she addressed him as a “tyrant” and managed to unveil herself from the chador…”. She also thought highly of Pope Benedict XVI, leaving her personal library to him.
Link: http://www.verumserum.com/?p=626
donh commented:
How many videos have we seen of the Arab Street burning the american flag? Islamic law is eye for an eye …do unto others as they have done onto you. Christian morality is to do onto others as you would have them to treat you. That is God’s law. However, when you are treated with brutality , there is a right to self defense and to respond in kind. Burning a Koran is simply treating Islamists according to their own law of an eye for an eye. A true islamist should not want it any other way.
dnb commented:
“It reflects poorly on this church and on Christianity in general” is something that we should well remember near the time of the ten year anniversary of 9/11. 9/11 reflected poorly on the Islamic terrorists and yet the majority of Americans did not let it reflect poorly on Muslims in general. The Cordoba Project might change that dynamic, and reflect poorly on the entire religion.
Chip Bennett commented:
I’ve not read all previous comments, so forgive me if I repeat or rehash anything already discussed. I find myself in considerable agreement with Wading Across.
You will find few people more socially or politically conservative than I am; however, I am a follower of Christ, first and foremost. What happens in this life is but a breath in comparison to our eternity in the next life. So, there are times when my Christian worldview will be at odds with my socio-political worldview. This is one such time.
The singular purpose of the Christian Church is the Great Commission of Christ – not to make political statements, but to preach the Gospel. Making a public show of burning Korans – in the name of the church – does not glorify Christ or open hearts of unbelievers to the message of Christ.
There are two issues here. From a secular political viewpoint, this group should have every right to make a political statement in the form of public burning of Korans, and should fight – even through the use of civil disobedience – any attempts to infringe upon that right.
However, Christ’s church has far more important priorities to weigh. This political act is counter-productive to the singular purpose of the body of Christ.
There are other ways – and other venues – to fight for our rights as humans and as American citizens. Jesus even gives us good ways for the church to make socio-political statements: feed the poor, clothe the naked, visit the imprisoned, care for the widow and the orphan. (I would wager that there are plenty in the Muslim community who fit one of those descriptions.)
As for Jesus’ scourging of the temple moneylenders: I don’t think it applies here. The moneylenders were making a mockery of the Temple – God’s house, a house of prayer. Neither Muslims nor their Korans are making a similar mockery of the church building where this Koran burning is to be held. I daresay that they won’t even be there.
Ironically, it is the crass political statement that will be making a mockery of the church, if anything.
Look at how Jesus interacted with the tax collectors, prostitutes, and other sinners of his day. Look at how Paul interacted with the Corinthians, and the Athenians. I see nothing even closely related to this book-burning – in motive or in execution – anywhere in the Bible.
This stunt will do nothing to spread the Gospel, or to win the hearts, minds, and souls of the lost.
billy sol commented:
Save A Tree! Please don’t burn ‘em . . . . use ‘em for toilet paper!
Chip Bennett commented:
@donh:
“Everything is permissible” – but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible” – but not everything is constructive.
I Corinthians 10:23
In fact, I would recommend a full reading of I Corinthians 10, esp. vv. 23-33, as context for this discussion.
Granny commented:
Chip, this is not just about spreading the Gospel. This is about your right to even have a Gospel to spread. This is, in fact, a war.
All during WWII, hundreds of thousands of our Jewish brethren made no attempt to lift a finger in self defense, in the name of these very same principles. It wasn’t just Chamberlain who tried to appease Hitler. It was Jewish communities all over Europe. It was people right here in the USA.
Our Founding Fathers & Mothers did not appease the British King. They fought for what they believed. The fighters in the Warsaw Ghetto, those who rebelled at Sobibor, the Bielski brothers, who walked into ghettos and rescued more Jews directly under the noses of Hitler’s minions that even Schindler saved – they all fought for what they believed in. And in every single case there were those to say that this was against religion, it wasn’t “correct”, that is was useless or crass or a stunt. And yet, they won.
There comes a time when you must not only pay lip service to what you believe, you must lay your property, your reputation and even your life on the line and fight for it. To do otherwise is to deny your belief. Our founders knew this. Those who won through in WWII knew this. Every generation must win freedom anew.
The members of this little backwater church have decided that their time has come to stand and fight. Every single time that we as a society allow ourselves to be cowed & silenced we deny the very principles on which we were built.
Chip Bennett commented:
@Andreas K:
You and I agree on so much – and here also, I agree with your point that we must actively fight the spread of Islamist overthrow of peaceful, free society.
However, I don’t see how this Koran-burning stunt in any way advances that goal. Sure, it will expose the hypocrisy of the Muslim who feign “outrage” and of the media who report it, but it won’t do a darn thing to advance the goal.
And more importantly for me as a Christian, it is counter-productive to advancing the Gospel. I support Koran-burning in the name of freedom of expression, but I oppose it as an act of a self-proclaimed part of the body of Christ. By all means, do it; just don’t do it in the name of the church.
pjean commented:
Get ready. In the eyes of the MSM, the kooks will define the whole.
Chip Bennett commented:
@Granny
I understand where you’re coming from, but please: don’t mistake me for either an appeaser or a pacifist. I’m certainly neither. (So much so, that I am censored by my wife regarding what I am allowed to discuss publicly, out of a very real fear for the safety of our family.)
I’m not opposing this event out of any sense of political outrage on behalf of the Muslim community. If that were all there were to it, then I’d be in full support. Rather, I am opposed to the event because it will actively and directly counter the Gospel mission of the body of Christ.
Unbelievers will not be converted as a result of this event. Muslims will not find the love of Christ exemplified in this event – nor will non-muslim unbelievers.
IIRC, erstwhile practitioners of witchcraft carried out a public burning of their spell books and paraphernalia, in Acts. If a church comprised of converted Muslims wanted to do something similar, I’d be more supportive of it. They would be doing so for similar reasons to that event in Acts: a repudiation of their former beliefs.
But as it is, this is nothing more than a political act that the church knows will incite outrage, if not violence.
We as the body of Christ can stand up for our rights and freedoms, and fight against infringement of those rights, without intentionally inciting violence and actively turning unbelievers away from the Gospel.
This isn’t an either-or scenario. Failing to carry out a public spectacle of burning Korans is not equivalent to abdicating all right to fight for our religious freedom. To paint it as such is to create a false dichotomy.
Granny commented:
Chip, I cannot think of a single church that does not do something or other on a fairly regular basis in the “name of the church” that I consider beyond the pale for the “body of Christ.”
Again, you have to answer only for yourself and the results of your teachings. This is not yours to judge on behalf of the “body of Christ.”
Gail F commented:
Sorry, this is an idiotic thing to do. “Burn a Koran Day”??? Give me a break! That’s not free speech, that’s deliberate provocation, inciting unrest and inviting an attack.
Like all fights, the fight against the expansion of Islam requires prudence. This isn’t a prudent act it’s a STUPID one.
Granny commented:
Well now THIS is interesting. All of the sudden, after allowing and even encouraging the release of the Lockerbie Bomber last year, TheWon is telling the media he wants Libya to send him back to prison in Scotland.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100820/ap_on_re_us/us_obama_lockerbie_anniversary
Does Obama REALLY think we are so stupid as to have forgotten?
Granny commented:
Sorry Gail – virtually ALL political speech is “free speech”. Even if it is provactive. In fact, political speech is the reason we have Freedom of Speech.
Chip Bennett commented:
@Granny:
There is a biblical difference between judging (determining the state of eternal salvation or damnation of another) and discerning (evaluating a matter in terms of moral right or wrong). We are admonished against the former, but we are absolutely called to the latter, especially in matters that involve the body of Christ.
I judge no one regarding this matter. I’m not claiming anyone is going to Hell for participating. On the other hand, I am well within my rights to speak out against this event as contrary to the mission of the church.
Opus #6 commented:
Free Speech must be protected.
Granny commented:
The mission of your church, Chip – not necessarily theirs. As one example, Catholics are surely as much a part of the “body of Christ” individually as anyone else and yet I (along with many others) consider the long held practice of praying to saints along with the presence of statues & relics of saints to be outright idol worship. All that means is that they are wrong FOR ME. They might indeed be perfectly right for them.
When you judge this church in this way as being “against the church” and therefor in error, you are putting yourself in the place of God and denying that God might work through them just as he does through you. It is NOT YOUR PLACE.
Chip Bennett commented:
@Opus #6:
Absolutely, and without question.
Might this be a better approach, though: how about the pastor of that church, rather than investing such time and energy in this event, instead spend that time and energy in studying the Koran, and then presenting a sermon series outlining the differences between Islam and Christianity, and why Christianity alone is the Way, the Truth, and the Light?
I can guarantee that such sermon series would incite extremists every bit as much as burning the Koran – only it would be done in a way that would open hearts to the Gospel, rather than harden them against it.
Use the pulpit to preach against the evils of the world, contrasted against the Gospel. Don’t pull crass political stunts in the name of protecting the freedom of speech.
Granny commented:
Again Chip, you are putting yourself and your own judgment and world view in place of the Holy Spirit who moves through the members of this church just as surely as it does through you.
Your plan might be the better plan for you. It is not your place to dictate the better plan for them, especially not in the name of God.
Chip Bennett commented:
@Granny:
There is ONE church: one body, one Spirit, one hope, one Lord, one Faith, one Baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (Eph. 4)
That church in Florida is part of the same body of Christ to which I belong. We rejoice together and we suffer together.
No offense, but that “wrong-for-me, right-for-them” argument is post-modern pap, and un-biblical. Truth is truth. Right is right. Wrong is wrong.
Some matters of right and wrong impact eternal salvation. The vast majority, don’t. That’s why we must rely on God’s grace, both to see us through the non-critical matters in which we err, and to maintain the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace with those with whom we disagree on such non-critical matters.
Again: I’m not judging that church. I’m not claiming any of them are going to suffer eternal damnation for this event.
I would only be putting myself in the place of God if I were saying anything contrary to Scripture. To that end, if you can find a scriptural basis for your argument, then I am all ears.
I don’t deny that God can work through this event, and that He will ultimately glorify himself. God will advance His Gospel and will glorify himself no matter what we do. That doesn’t mean that we are absolved of our responsibility to further the Gospel, rather than hinder it.
Wait: how can it be not my place to speak out against this church carrying out this event, but it is your place to speak out against me? Are you not discerning that my actions are wrong?
You’ve seemingly placed yourself in the same logical dilemma as the person who claims “there are no absolutes”.
StrngernFiction commented:
Wow there is so much to say regarding this topic. One of the most interesting discussions I’ve come across on the net.
For starters, this is a great example of how widespread the brainwashing is. To read some of these comments you’d think that Islam IS a religion of peace. Ah, but they don’t call it a cancer for no reason.
As would be the case for burning one of the Bamster’s autobiographies, the only legitimate argument for not burning the Koran, if these folks are truly aware of the consequences and still want to follow through with this, is that it would amount to bad PR and thus hurt our side and help the enemy (mooslims and the left). That is the ONLY reason, and that point is probably worth debating.
But it is my opinion that we are long past the point where we should be taking stands based on our principles (and like many others here have said islam is an obamination), letting the chips fall where they may and the sides be formed. So if these folks have their eyes open and want to take this courageous action, more power to them.
Chip Bennett commented:
@Granny:
And just as a side note: I’m much more of a Paul than a Peter. My heart is much more missional – as in, I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. That’s my perspective – recognizing that we are all appointed different viewpoints and personalities, and are called by the Spirit to different uses.
MR.ED commented:
It’s just wrong
redc1c4 commented:
i don’t understand why anyone is worried about this event causing a problem, let alone some sort of violent response…..
after all, islam is a religion of peace.
Granny commented:
Chip, you are putting yourself in the place of God when you decide in your wisdom that you are the sole arbiter of who belongs to the Body of Christ and what actions are appropriate or not. This pastor and these congregants surely have as much discernment as do you or I and it is not your place to dispute their judgment, absent some CLEAR violation of a moral absolute.
Not being in the “best interests” according to your own definition of the “body of Christ” is not a moral absolute.
As to Freedom of Speech – it either exists or it does not. It cannot be qualified, adapted or limited except under extremely limited circumstances. The fact the some other group might not like what is said, might be offended by what is said, might riot because of what is said, might disagree with what is said is of no importance or consequence and must be of absolutely NO consideration.
It is not your place as a Christian to judge the actions of other Christians taken in good conscience. It is not your place as either a Christian or an American to say “Defend Freedom of Speech at all costs – but speak some other way.”
Espresso Logic - The 6th Sense commented:
Chip is one of the “good” people.
The “good” people will get us all killed.
Chip Bennett commented:
@Espresso Logic:
Are you incapable of separating a religious matter with a political one, or are you merely exercising a lack of reading comprehension?
As I’ve already stated: as a political matter, I support this even 100%.
KR commented:
I often cringe when I heard people quote the “Do not judge” verse out of context.
In context, Jesus is saying use fairness when making judgements. Know that the in the same way that you judge, it will be returned to you.
We all make judgements everyday. It is unavoidable. Just examine yourself first and exercise humility.
I agree with Chip Bennett, this book burning is crass and is not a positive step in the long run.
We can do better.
I’d love to have Thomas Jefferson here today to heard what he would do. I know he would not appease the Islamists. As CIC and a pragmatist concerning war, I’d love to hear his ideas.
bg commented:
++
we are damned if we do, damned if we don’t..
we had better wake up & take sides..
fact is we cannot see the forest through the trees..
Islamists burn Churches, Bibles
& Christians around the Globe..
self defense & the turn the other cheek myth
There is a difference in giving up personal
revenge and confronting evil in self defense.
foreigners no longer come to assimilate themselves to the American way,
they come to demand that America not only assimilate to their way, but accommodate & assist them in their struggle to dominate US..
we must defend ourselves against evil, not assist
it by turning the other cheek against ourselves..
==
Granny commented:
Chip, sometimes even religious people must take a political stance. That is what this church is doing. They are in good company. A certain Pastor Bonhoeffer comes readily to mind.
You do not need to insult Espresso Logic. His reading comprehension is just fine. This is NOT a religious matter. This is a political matter. And make no mistake – religion IS politics. It was in the time of Christ, it has been throughout the millenia and so it remains today.
I am not a Paulian. I am a Peter without doubt. You cannot be all things to all people. Those who attempt it become nothing to anyone.
StrngernFiction commented:
Jerry Haberer
August 21st, 2010 | 6:23 am | #22
….Burning the Holy Book of another religion accomplishes nothing but to show one’s own intolerance and hate. Like the Bible. the Qur’an represents FAITH and BELIEF. No one I know has the inside track on absolute truth.
—————————————————–
We must not show our intolerance of intolerance, eh Jerry?
Faith and belief in what?
You’re right Jerry, no one has the “inside track on absolute truth,” but many of us recognize a cult bent on destruction (our destruction) when we see it.
KR commented:
It is VERY important to keep the issues clear between a religious battle and one of defending our country, even here on our own land.
This church is making it a religious battle which it does not need to be.
It is about protecting our people and way of life and freedoms.
greenfairie commented:
BAD idea.
The church ought to spend its efforts trying to bring those folks to Christ instead of pulling off a stunt that will play into the Left’s propaganda machine.
jainphx commented:
My word, listen to the people that want to live in fear. We make excuses and bend over backwards for people that don’t deserve any considerations. No instead of holding them to account, we live in fear that we will do something or say something to set them off. I can’t and wont live that way.
When the LORD said turn to them the other cheek, you have to read what they were discussing. He said if someone smite they “because of me” turn to them the other also. He never said to not defend your self or family, he said that his name will be first in your heart. You see this is where we and Islam part company, they will kill you if you “insult” their beliefs.
Our good LORD needs not my protection, only my belief. My LORD is all powerful, what damage can we do to HIM.
My point is that a true G-D needs not the protection of his creation.
KR commented:
If this pastor wants to burn the Koran, he should do it as a citizen of a country that is being threatened by Islamists.
He does not need to bring Christianity in to the conflict.
We as Americans oppose Islamist ideology. That is enough right there.
Sojourner commented:
Chip Bennett
August 21st, 2010 | 9:03 am | #74
‘There is a biblical difference between judging (determining the state of eternal salvation or damnation of another) and discerning (evaluating a matter in terms of moral right or wrong).’
so true.. while the Word sheds elucidates in Acts 19:19-20, it remains a moral matter to be discerned with care between free people & their God.
(New American Standard Bible)
19″And many of those who practiced magic brought their books together and began burning them in the sight of everyone; and they counted up the price of them and found it fifty thousand (A)pieces of silver.”
20″So (B)the word of the Lord (C)was growing mightily and prevailing.”
Granny commented:
KR, you could not possibly be more wrong. This IS a religious battle, just as the fight against the Nazis was a religious battle.
Islam is a political system & ideology, not merely a “religion” and it is one that lies in direct opposite to everything that we as a nation hold dear. The very word “islam” means “submit.”
Islam made this a religious battle long, long ago.
bg commented:
++
Was Jesus a pacifist?
[We are commanded to hate what is evil and cling to what is good (Romans 12:9). In doing so we must take a stand against what is evil in this world and pursue righteousness (2 Timothy 2:22). Jesus did this and, in so doing, spoke openly against the religious and political rulers of His time because they were not seeking a righteousness from God, but rather of their own making (Luke 20:1-2, Romans 9:31-33). Zeal for God’s righteousness consumed Jesus, and He was not afraid to stand up against those who opposed and dishonored His Father (John 2:15-17, see also Numbers 25:11). “Those who hate Him He will repay to their face by destruction; He will not be slow to repay to their face those who hate Him” (Deuteronomy 7:10). “While people are saying, ‘Peace and safety,’ destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape” (1 Thessalonians 5:3).]
==
Chip Bennett commented:
@Granny:
Now you’re just putting words in my mouth. Where did I ever say any such thing?
For the record: I believe that anyone who confesses with his mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord and believes in his heart that God raised Him from the dead is saved, and is a member of the body of Christ. Given that this belief comes directly from Scripture, I would say that my stance takes Scripture itself, not me, as “sole arbiter of who belongs to the Body of Christ”.
So, we as Christians are putting ourselves in the place of God if we declare that extra-marital sex is wrong, or that homosexual relations are wrong, or that abortion is wrong, etc.?
Surely you jest.
You’re still conflating the concepts of judgement and discernment. And by your reasoning, no Christian can ever discern against another Christian’s actions or decisions, in any circumstance. Such a stance flies in the face of Scripture.
For one, limiting discernment and debate among Christians to matters of “moral absolutes” is also not scriptural (and also a double standard, since apparently you impose on me your own definition of “moral absolute”); for another, actively hindering the message and Gospel of Christ is a matter than can be defined as a moral absolute.
Again: as a political matter, I agree 100% with their freedom – and correctness – to carry out this event.
First: again with the double standard. I am in good conscience speaking out against carrying out this event in the name of Christ, and yet you are discerning (again: not judging) my actions.
Second: where in the Bible does it say that I cannot discern for or against the actions of other Christians taken in good conscience?
Of course it is my place – just as it is the place of anyone else. Would you not tell a KKK group that they cannot burn a cross in public? Would you not speak out against the proposed location of the Ground Zero mosque? Would you not speak out against the “God Hates Fags”/”Thank God For Dead Soldiers” Westboro Baptist kooks interfering with private funerals?
And again: I am speaking out regarding the religious implications of this event, not it’s political implications. If we exercise our God-given right to freedom of speech in such a way that it damages the message of the Gospel, then we, as Christians, are absolutely in the wrong.
bitterclinger commented:
“I disagree with almost everything written in the Qur’an. I have read it but I would not burn it out of spite for the minority of Muslims who are associated with terrorism. ”
In response to this statement above, did you know that Frank Gaffney is releasing a list this week of the US mosques that are considered “peaceful”? It’s 20 PERCENT of the total.
Other than that, I wouldn’t go for churches burning the Koran, but would like to see a nationwide observance from everyone and his/her brother.
donh commented:
I always take the direct word of Christ as more authoritative than any writings of his disciples. Matthew 13:24 is a parable of Christ:
“The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; the field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; the enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast then into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
The Koran is a tare that has grown side by side with the Lord’s wheat. Let the Holy scripture be separated from the tares by FIRE !
Subadar Lal Kukhri commented:
Oh, please, PLEASE: Don’t publicly burn them korans . . .
And please, PLEASE: Tell “them” it’s more than OK to tolerate a mosque two blocks from the WTC tragedy (caused by Allah for US foreign, Israel, Cantor Fitzgerald, etc.!!!) site.
Then, they will never kill any of us ever again no more!!!!!
Please God!!!!! Get behind me these hinderances: freaking idiotic cowards and tolerant traitors.
Fionnagh commented:
As a longtime paralegal, I’ve learned there is often a difference between what is “legal” and what is “moral.” The church may have a legal right to burn the Koran, but is that a moral right? Isn’t burning a Koran the same as burning our flag? Both are acts of contempt. They are also acts of violence. I’d far prefer the church show its contempt of Islam without violence, the latter being the Islamic way. As Mr. Bennett writes above, how about delivering sermons on the Koran’s violent passages? How about taking steps to ensure that Muslims are not elected into office, so that the law of Shariah does not become the law of the United States as well?
Violence is the last resort for those who feel powerless. It is the last resort for those who have tried everything else, and failed. What other methods of combatting Islam has this church/its members tried, before deciding upon the extreme course of burning books? This is a publicity stunt that will surely have a negative impact, and not on Muslims.
Wading Across commented:
Amen Chip, and agreed on all accounts with you.
As an aside, I just had a discussion with an elder in my church (I’m a deacon) about him teaching me some martial arts, self defense. We then discussed guns and my eventual purchase of one for the protection of my home, family and public.
Sometimes we must be soldiers for Christ, and sometimes we must allow ourselves to be laid low. There is a time and a place for many things.
Sometimes you can offensively defend the faith, and sometimes you must passively defend it.
Far more good can be accomplished by teaching and preaching about Islam than holding a book burning.
Getting back on topic, there is a difference between discernment and judgement, and Chip is precisely correct in the differences.
Our home is not here. This nation will fall away. For Christ’s glory and honor first.
KR commented:
Granny,
Is the US fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan over religion?
That’s my point.
We are fighting Islamist extremism and terrorism.
jainphx commented:
I have to ask if there is anyone here that would even consider killing someone that would burn a Bible?
Our churches are open to anyone that is lead to enter, all are welcome. Can you enter a mosque?
Granny commented:
Actually Chip, I would not tell a KKK group that they could not burn a cross in public. I wouldn’t like it and I might very well demonstrate against it, but I wouldn’t tell them they couldn’t do it.
No, I do not speak out against the Westborough crew. I do not like what they do. I have helped to organize human screens for military funerals. I have covered my grandchild’s eyes when they lined the streets of the town we lived in with pictures of aborted fetii 4 feet high. But they DO have a right to do the things they do. And I do believe that they do at least some of them in good conscience.
You cannot separate the religious from the political when it comes to islam. For that matter, you cannot separate it. We have gone far too long trying to do that, accepting “Piss Christ” without a murmur of protest.
And no – it is NOT your place to dictate to anyone at all the manner in which they can exercise their own personal Freedom of Speech nor the words that they must use.
Rachelle commented:
We have endured abuse of the Bible and the American flag for decades. It’s time to burn a few Korans.
I am wondering, though, why they don’t just burn them in a couple of home barbecue units. You don’t need a fire permit for a barbecue, do you?
Subadar Lal Kukhri commented:
The only good/moderate muslim I ever saw was a non-practicing apostate or a convert to a real religion.
The Koran/Hadith: warning from history.
Islam requires the mussulman to emulate Muhammed, PTBUH. That means the faithful will make war against all unbelievers, just like Mulie did.
The killers will kill. The financiers fund the war. The imams recruit and brainwash (mass murder merits 72 virgins?!) killers. The emirs equip, organize, plan and give orders. The women and children will act as human shields, feed and service the murderers .
Actually, the only good mussulman I ever saw was a corpse.
Granny commented:
KR, I would suggest that you read up a little bit on islam.
As far as Iraq and Afghanistan go, I frankly do not believe and never have believed that we should be in either place. I support our military – make no mistake there. I was a good military wife for many a year. However, I’ve never believed in the particular mission.
Iraq and Afghanistan are about oil – access to and control of. Yes, both of them. I could write a book for you explaining why, but better you should do a little digging yourself. Read up on the First World War and pay particular attention to the divvying up of the Middle East at the end. And hunt around the net for an announcement of a decade or so ago about plans to build a pipeline from the oilfields of the ‘stans north of Afghan to the Indian subcontinent.
Terrorism? We are not really fighting terrorism. If we were then Yasser Arafat would NEVER have been declared a “peace partner” and legitimatized. And of course that is one of thousands of examples.
StrngernFiction commented:
Granny and Andreas K, you’ve taken some real nice cuts on this thread. Here are some of the highlights for those who might have just tuned in:
Without the koran there wouldn’t have been 9-11. Yes, it’s that simple. – Andreas K
Why shouldn’t we burn it? Out of respect? Respect for what? Respect for a fascist ideology that hides behind the shield of religion? An ideology that, without this shield, would be banned right away in all civilized countries? – Andreas K
By the way. Faith and believe? That’s no argument against burning it. There were people who prayed to Hitler. Not for him. To him. There were people in Nazi Germany BELIEVING that Hitler was second coming of Jesus. It was their FAITH. – Andreas K
Something tells me that the heroes who did their little bit to end the abominations of Hitler have a much better welcome waiting them than those who wrung their hands & pretended not to see. – Granny
Pacifism works only if everyone’s a pacifist. -Andreas K
Not taking an action because you think it will give the muslims cause to complain virtually guarantees that you’ll be bowing to Mecca before you can spit. If they do not have “cause” to complain, they will find cause and if they cannot find it they will invent it as they have done innumerable times previously. If you don’t understand that, then you understand nothing at all. – Granny
Chip, this is not just about spreading the Gospel. This is about your right to even have a Gospel to spread. This is, in fact, a war. – Granny
There comes a time when you must not only pay lip service to what you believe, you must lay your property, your reputation and even your life on the line and fight for it. – Granny
Every single time that we as a society allow ourselves to be cowed & silenced we deny the very principles on which we were built. – Granny
bg commented:
++
the enemy of civilization, as we have been repetitively warned
by both anti-Islamist Muslims & non-Muslims in the know is Political Islam aka: Sharia Law.. Islamism is a religious cult of POLITICS..
[Jasser founded AIFD in the wake of the 9/11 attacks in order to provide a Muslim American voice that would genuinely advocate and defend the founding principles of the U.S. Constitution. He has taken the fight against radical Islam to heart and sees it as a responsibility of all “true” Muslims. Where many U.S.-based Islamic organizations, such as CAIR and the Islamic Society of North America, claim to support the U.S. Constitution but provide dodgy answers and shoddy excuses for terrorism when the rubber meets the road, Dr. Jasser’s AIFD is based on the founding principles of the United States. Where CAIR’s rhetoric tends to create a tension between Americans and its Muslim members, the rhetoric of Jasser and AIFD refers to Americans as an “us” and not a “them.”
“I have always looked upon myself, long before 9-11, as a Jeffersonian Muslim, if you will,” Dr. Jasser answers when asked about his identification as a Muslim. “Along with the ideas of liberty as embodied in the works of our founding fathers, naturally emanating from that is a deep antipathy for Islamism (political Islam), salafism, jihadism, governmental sharia, and the global collectivist movement of the Muslim Brotherhood.”
Terms such as “moderate,” “secular,” and “radical” are innately controversial as any group is able to contort them to mean what they want. For example, Jasser posits, the term “moderate” has become synonymous with being non-violent or anti-terrorism. But this is an oversimplification that blinds Americans to the very political ideologies — which he identifies as “Islamism” — that are the cogs and gears of terrorism.
“I know everyone is looking for an easy label to know the ‘good Muslim’ from the ‘bad Muslim,’” Jasser continues, “but … I believe that the ‘anti-Islamist’ or at least ‘non-Islamist’ Muslims are on our side and the pro-Islamist Muslims, those who believe in the Islamic state and governmental sharia, are not on our side but on the side of political Islam.”]
rtwt..
anti-Islamist Muslims have been reaching out, they have been, and still are
warning US.. unfortunately, the powers that be are not only silencing them,
but for all intent & purpose, are in communion with Islamists against them..
==
Chip Bennett commented:
@Granny:
For all of the other people and groups who will be participating in the “World Burn a Koran Day” on 9/11, I absolutely support their right to do so, for all of the political reasons and concerns expressed in this comment thread.
Equating this situation to Bonhoeffer is specious, if not ludicrous. Again: there is a vast world of difference between exercising our freedom of expression in an act intentionally intended to incite hatred and violence, and exercising our freedom of religious worship and expression.
Consider Daniel: he didn’t burn Nebuchadnezzar in effigy when Nebuchadnezzar ruled that no one could bow down or pray to anyone other than him, and that everyone must bow down and worship his statue. Rather, Daniel merely continued to pray as he always did. Consider Jesus, who said that we are give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s. Consider Paul, who instructed us to submit to all earthly authority under which we are placed.
To the contrary: if he read everything I’ve written, then I truly must question his reading comprehension, given that I’ve stated from the outset that I 100% support the political freedom, and statement, but that my opposition is purely a religious question with respect to its impact on the church’s singular mission of furthering the Gospel of Christ.
There is absolutely a distinction between political and religious arguments. As Paul says:
(II Cor. 5:3-5)
And again:
(Eph. 6:12)
We are Americans, and absolutely have a place in the American social and political landscape and debate. But as Christians we are waging a spiritual, not a political battle.
Say what?!? Religion is most assuredly not politics (at least not for Christians):
(James 1:26-27)
So Paul, indisputably the single greatest missionary in the history of the world, “[became] nothing to anyone”, because of his philosophy of becoming all things to all men so that by all possible means he might save some?
Seriously?
Blue Collar Todd commented:
Do an art display of a “Piss Koran” instead. That way Liberals will have to defend it.
http://www.bluecollarphilosophy.com/2010/08/update-church-cannot-get-burning-permit.html
Ken commented:
This IS a religious battle, just as the fight against the Nazis was a religious battle.
Your right Granny, the moslems were also behind the death camps. The freakin moslems are behind some of worst atrocities commited in history.
They require our christian tolerance to succeed.
They burn down churches, and we just want to burn a few books?
Robert commented:
I’m hoping for a nice dry night in Gainesville on Sept. 11, 2010,
a night where combustibles leap to flame at the merest spark.
Andreas K. commented:
Arch
August 21st, 2010 | 6:57 am | #41
Andreas K:
To paraphrase Eva Peron, We are all racists now!
————————-
Been there longer than you Arch. I’m a racist and a nazi, according to the left wing around here and have been for a few years.
Both terms are used to loosely these days that they have lost all meaning.
I’m going to tell you a little story now. A story about a continent where PC and tolerance took over daily life. The result of this was:
A few years ago a Norwegian politician told the Norwegian women that, if they don’t want to get raped by mohammedan immigrants, they have to adapt the mohammedan dress code.
In the past few days several people have been murdered/assaulted in Germany, following the usual modus operandi: stabbed with a knife. The perpetrators were all mohammedan.
Every 4 minutes a woman in Germany is assaulted these days.
In Germany, in early 2009, mohammedans marched through the cities and screamed “Death to Israel”. In fact, this happened all across Europe. Nobody did anything about it. Nobody complained. It was tolerated.
In the UK mohammedans can demonstrate with “freedom go to hell”, “British police go to hell”, “be prepared for the real holocaust” and nobody arrests them. But when a group like the EDL protests against the mohammedans who use such banners, then the EDL are the fascists and the racists.
Also in the UK mohammedans can spit on British soldiers when they return from the war, but people, who defend the soldiers, are racists, according to the media.
In the Netherlands homosexuals are scared of encountering mohammedans, because they know the mohammedans will beat them up, if they’re lucky.
In Sweden, Denmark and Norway mohammedans hunt Jews and when you speak out against it you’re called racist by the media and the left wing. Malmö in Sweden is about to become “Judenfrei”, as it was called under Hitler. Clear of Jews.
That is islam. The true face of islam. And all of these events are sanctioned by the koran.
In Europe it’s 1938 all over again. All it takes is a spark and this powder keg will blow up. And this spark will come, it’s inevitable now.
Geert Wilders was right when he compared the koran with Mein Kampf.
It’s their holy book? Why do I have to respect that? They sure as hell don’t respect me or my believes. Why do I have to respect them?
Respect has to be earned.
Islam has done NOTHING to earn my respect.
Burn it.
KR
August 21st, 2010 | 10:14 am | #104
Granny,
Is the US fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan over religion?
That’s my point.
We are fighting Islamist extremism and terrorism.
————————————-
No, we’re fighting islam. They are not extremists who interpret the koran wrongly. Everything these terrorists do is 100% sanctioned by the koran. The koran tells mohammedans to go and kill infidels. There is nothing to misunderstand there. It’s clear, 100% clear and obvious.
Hitler and Himmler both adored islam for exactly that reason. There was a mohammedan SS division for exactly that reason.
They were not radicals. They were good mohammedans following Mohammed’s orders.
Just like today.
They are not radicals. They are good mohammedans following Mohammed’s orders.
Islam is on the same level as national socialism. But the nazi BS was destroyed, bombed into the ground. Why can’t we do it with islam as well?
1 billion mohammedans vs 5 billion non-mohammedans.
Why do we allow this mere 1 billion dictate how we have to live?
Burn this vile book. Make a nice fire with it.
And then extinguish the fire with peeing on it.
KR commented:
Granny,
My main point is this is an American issue/fight.
It would be a big mistake to lead people to think this is Christians vs Islamists.
The Islamists want to convert or kill all. To them it is their religion which motivates them, but for us it is defending ourselves, all Americans who want to live peacefully.
I am not a pacifist or an appeaser by any means. I am just saying that we should be careful to not muddy the waters and lead anyone to think this is the Christian church fighting this battle.
StrngernFiction commented:
As far as Iraq and Afghanistan go, I frankly do not believe and never have believed that we should be in either place. I support our military – make no mistake there. I was a good military wife for many a year. However, I’ve never believed in the particular mission.
————————————————–
Granny, I agree with you here, though I am quite reticent to voice this belief as I support our brave soldiers 100%. But I feel compelled to speak out here.
For me it is simple. In the end will the people of Iraq and Afghanistan side with the forces for liberty and democracy and against islam? In my opinion this is where I believe George Bush damaged the cause of conservatism, and thus America the most. Being conservative should not be equated with efforts to nation build in mooslim countries, but sadly, in many if not most quarters it is.
Granny commented:
Andreas, I lived in Germany in the late 60′s. My first apartment didn’t even have a door – and I was perfectly safe. What has happened to Germany since breaks my heart.
BTW, Hitler had 3 or 4 muslim SS divisions recruited from the Balkans.
Granny commented:
But KR, on the most basic level it IS Christians and Jews and Sikhs and Buddhists and Hindus against muslims. To think otherwise is utterly ridiculous. The islamists tell us themselves, the very koran tells us that this is so.
jainphx commented:
All the comments on this thread prove that Christianity is head and shoulders above Islam. We discuss and answer each other with different ideas, but the basic tenet is peaceful. We have no fear that what we say would bring someone to our house to kill us, can the same be said of ISLAM? To say we are at war with radical muslims fits right into their play book.
Granny commented:
StrangernFiction, nobody in the world does nation building better than the US does – when we do it right. We have two shining examples of doing it right – Germany and Japan. Unfortunately, we sacrificed our principles when it came to Iraq and Afghanistan. I’m ashamed that we have allowed constitutions in both countries so completely at odds with everything we profess to believe as a nation!
KR commented:
Andreas K,
I appreciate our perspective on this issue. You have seen much living in Europe, and I have learned from your posts.
I am just not convinced that publicly burning Korans by a church is going to accomplish much, except having non-Christians viewing the Christians in an even more negative light. Then the law enforcement is going to take a stance of protecting the muslims from these “crazed religious haters”. It is just going to backfire on the Christian church. There must be some better ideas.
Sorry about using the “extremist” term as if there are only a few in the bunch. I agree with you, many are hiding their true beliefs.
bg commented:
++
just a sample of the madness that is the Koran..
Christian pastor and wife burned to death by Muslims
MUSLIMS BURN CHRISTIANS ALIVE
“There is no need to burn the Bibles. [.] “Just imagine if we, the same [the] United States military, were to take a bunch of Korans and burn them. I can imagine the ramifications across the world.”
ISLAM IS A ONE WAY STREET.. get
with the programs direction already!!
==
jainphx commented:
bg—- I’m afraid that we are going to reap the whirlwind because of our basic decency.
KR commented:
“But KR, on the most basic level it IS Christians and Jews and Sikhs and Buddhists and Hindus against muslims. To think otherwise is utterly ridiculous. The islamists tell us themselves, the very koran tells us that this is so.” -Granny
But the Bible does not tell Christians to kill people who believe differently.
We are against the islamists out of self defense of our freedoms and lives. An atheist has just as much reason to oppose them as a Hindu, Jew, etc.
For the Islamist, yes it is ALL ABOUT RELIGION.
For everyone else, no it is not religion that drives us to oppose them.
bg commented:
++
re: bg #125
direction = directive
==
Granny commented:
On my way out the door to spend the afternoon with the kids, but one more point KR. If it won’t help, it also surely cannot put us in a worse position. Other than that, I think there will be great consternation that someone, anyone, finally stood up and said “enough!”
Granny commented:
KR, even atheism and agnosticism are “religions.” Or have you forgotten the god Mammon (often interpreted as money.)?
Ken commented:
KR
I hate to break it you but law enforcement is already protecting moslems from the “christians” and in fact the government is taking sides with moslems against christians.
Wake up, the battle has begun, we’re beyond hurting peoples feelings.
I don’t like it any better than you do, I have a brand new grandchild that I want to see grow up but what will he grow up to now?
KR commented:
I think we agree on this Granny,
On the most basic level it IS “all non-muslims” against muslims, because muslims want to convert or kill us all according to THEIR crazy religion.
KR commented:
Well, I would like some real solutions just like the rest of you all. Half measures won’t do. I see burning Korans as half measures.
If I were CIC, I’d go full-on to protect the country. I wish other western countries would all ban together and get serious.
bg commented:
++
KR @ 11:13 am #127
re: [For the Islamist, yes it is ALL ABOUT RELIGION.]
yes, but what we dhimmis fail to fathom, and what many anti-Islamist aka: Political Islam (brother of Political Correctness) aka: Sharia Law Muslims..
is the fact that the Islamist view of religion is political.. ie:
May 18, 2010
Not at Ground Zero
[On Sept. 12, 2001, I was first an American. When those planes hit the World Trade Center, they hit at the core of my being as an American. The attack on my faith by the terrorists was secondary to their attack on my homeland.
We need to focus our efforts more transparently on teaching Muslim youth that
the American concepts of liberty and freedom are preferable to sharia and the
Islamic state. American Muslims represent the best opportunity to fight Islamist radicalization not because we understand Islam but because we have experienced and understood what American liberty provides to the Muslim experience.
Americans must always remember the horrors of 9/11 and must be vigilant in
not allowing political Islam to wear down the principles that built our country.
This center is trying to change the narrative of 9/11 -- to diminish what happened
at Ground Zero. That can only weaken us against the very real threat of Islamist radicalization.]
May 26, 2010
It’s the Ideology!
[Abdul-Malik. also. makes. no. bones. about. discussing. how. the. election. of. President. Obama. is. a. step. forward. in. the. project. of. Islamization. and. the. long. term. goal. of. Islamist. domination. which. falls. right. in. lock-step. with. that. of. the. Muslim. Brotherhood. as. revealed. in. their. manifesto.]
==
Marsh commented:
They should just use it as toilet paper.
Spike commented:
The whole Country should join in on 9-11
Andrew commented:
Two words.
“Piss Christ”
Burn em, baby, burn em
KR commented:
bg, thanks for the added clarification. It is ideology/politics and religion bound together for the Islamists. It is all consuming for them. It is their life mission. It is what is drummed into their heads from childhood. What else would drive a huge group of people to be so unfeeling and brutal to others who have never threatened them?
Peggy commented:
If ever there was a book that deserved burning every copy then it is the Koran. But this is just idiotic. Way to honor the memory of our precious dead who were killed by people who hate free speech and the liberty to exchange and discuss ideas.
I hate everything the Koran stands for, but I would never burn it. The suppression of ideas and the burning of books is so very un-American to me.
Idiots!
Joanne commented:
The Koran was put together by an evil man who had sex with children, treated women like animals, and slaughtered as many Christians and Jews as possible. Do we honestly owe the Koran any respect?
Personally, I’d like to see the so-called moderate muslims in America go nuts over this, which they will. People need to get it through their thick skulls that there are one set of rules for muslims and another for non-muslims in Islam….and the muslims have every intention of ruling over the non-muslims or putting them to death.
If we aren’t prepared to fight terror with a fight, then we will be at the mercy of Islam.
Peggy commented:
BTW, if you really want to honor the dead on 9/11 do what so many of us are already doing. Do something good for someone else. Help someone in need. And above all THANK AN EMERGENCY RESPONDER for the sacrifices they are prepared to make for you.
Do something to honor the memory of those firefighters who died climbing up hundreds of feet into hell with heavy hoses and equipment on their backs to try and save lives!
Joanne commented:
If burning the Koran makes muslims show their true colors and not be able to hide behind their lies any longer, then we should get a good look at it to reveal the truth to us, so we all know what we are up against.
Joanne commented:
If people want to do something for all those people who died at the hand of Islamists on 9/11, do everything you can to make sure their loved ones left behind will be safe from the same kind of attacks.
marie commented:
Why do they need a permit in the first place?
Sojourner commented:
‘Burn a Koran Day.Should Christians Participate?’
http://eyeonapologetics.com/blog/2010/08/02/burn-a-koran-day-should-christians-participate/
codekeyguy commented:
Let’s look at this reasonably. If the muzzies burn a Bible, Christians will say a prayer for them. If Christians burn a koran, muzzies act like the Queen of Hearts (Off with her head!!!)
Also, since the koran is the means by which muzzies JUSTIFY every evil act as rightous, burning one is simply a statement of disagreement.
Another point: Christians try to convert, but accept that some don’t want conversion. Muzzies DEMAND CONVERSION, OR MURDER THE TARGET.
What a religion of peace (I prefer POS)
StrngernFiction commented:
Keep thinking inside the box Peggy, because it has worked marvelously so far.
bg commented:
++
flashback: 7/27/07
Accommodation as an Islamist Political Instrument
[The Establishment Clause of our Constitution and the pluralism upon which our nation is based carries with it principles which should always be remembered. Our freedom to practice our personal faith should never be denied. And the courts have repeatedly endorsed this as a right guaranteed by our First Amendment rights to free speech and religious practice.
However, once that right begins to impose a cost, whether financial or
experiential, upon another citizen, that right ends. For with that cost, it becomes an imposition—a coercive force. A political force—in this case, Islamism.]
as it is in the case of the CORDOBA *VICTORY MOSQUE by any other name..
(*term applied by anti-Islamist Center MUSLIMS)
much more here..
and please check out: bg #25/26/27
re: the September 11 Museum, Rauf’s connections, and how they are ISLAMIZING it.. *sigh*
==
Ken commented:
codekeyguy
I like your thinking.
Ann commented:
they are gonna burn a book!!! Big deal…The people who believe in that book burn PEOPLE…They cut off heads and bomb innocent men ,women and children…They even kill their own family if they dare “dishonor” them and people are concerned about burning a book that tells em it is ok to do so???? Talk about skewed priorities…
bg commented:
++
flashback: 7/27/07
Accommodation as an Islamist Political Instrument
[The Establishment Clause of our Constitution and the pluralism upon which our nation is based carries with it principles which should always be remembered. Our freedom to practice our personal faith should never be denied. And the courts have repeatedly endorsed this as a right guaranteed by our First Amendment rights to free speech and religious practice.
However, once that right begins to impose a cost, whether financial or
experiential, upon another citizen, that right ends. For with that cost, it becomes an imposition—a coercive force. A political force—in this case, Islamism.]
as it is in the case of the CORDOBA *VICTORY MOSQUE by any other name..
(*term applied by anti-Islamist Center MUSLIMS)
much more here..
and please check out: bg #25/26/27
re: the September 11 Museum, the Rauf connection,
and the steps Islamists are taking to Islamize it ..
==
ivehadit commented:
Who is this guy? I have NEVER seen Christian church burn anything of another’s religion.
I smell a ‘rat…as in a scam. It’s a Public Relations set up to create the liberal template about “intolerant” conservatives…and to drive media content.
Manufactured news. Someone needs to do some investigative work on this…
Militant Conservative commented:
I’m bringing weenies,smores and a glock.
That about covers the first two amendments.
Piss on the rabid musterd dogs. powder is dry.
Jules commented:
As a Christian I see this comparable to burning Satanic Verses as Islam is the Spirit of the Anti-Christ in my opinion. So, I’d love to burn korans on 9-11 too. Where can I find some? From a local mosque for free? The less people who are exposed to this horrible and evil religion the better in my opinion.
aprilnovember811 commented:
IF BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA’S FRIEND AYERS THE WEATHERMAN TERRORIST CAN STEP ON THE FLAG, AND MILITARY PROTESTORS CAN PROTEST AT MILITARY FUNERALS, THIS IS ALLOWED ALSO. FREE SPEECH! WE’LL SEND YOU MATCHES.
timothyJ commented:
I apologize for not reading all of the 155 posts that are above this, but time doesn’t allow.
Sooner or later, we will lose our ‘free speech’ because we allow others with suspect motivations to determine just what free speech is allowed and not allowed. If this works for them, then let them do it. One way to know for sure that ou are in the right is to see just who it is that is protesting against what you do.
free` commented:
Maybe if the koran was wrapped in the Stars and Stripes it would be OK. We need to stop backing down to islam. It is not a religion, it is a death cult and that isn’t protected by the first amendment.
YeahRight commented:
I disagree with burning any book, however why not try this instead:
Get a couple dozen Port a Poties they everyone throw one of these vile books in it and then take a dump…
That is how I feel of that book.
bg commented:
++
oops, sorry about the double post..
Sojourner @ 12:38 pm #146
cannot wait for the day when Islamists are not only asked the same questions,
but why they burn churches, Christians as well as do other abominable things
to any & all who do not bow to their radical doctrine..
WAKE THE HELL UP & DEFEND YOUR COUNTRY OR YOUR GRANDCHILDREN WILL BE BOWING TO MECCA.. and mark
my words, that will be the only left of America you can bank on..
inch by inch via killing & stealing just about everything from the Jews, Gentiles & anti-Islamist Muslims is how they created their Old World Caliphate.. yes, they stole just about everything they claim to have discovered or invented & burned the BOOKS they stole the information from.. only one thing they’ve done more of than any orther group throughout history is, they’ve killed more of theor own Muslims than all others combined.. so you think Americans are a problem for them?? hah, you bleeding heart liberas no matter what you reasoning, had better think again before you’re not allowed to by Allahu Akbar.. gah!!
ipso facto: the Islamists have stolen & reinterpreted our Constitution in much
the same manner they have the Koran, and are using both it to conquer US from within..
.. SUPPORT & DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES AGAINST ALL ENEMIES FROM ALL ENEMIES, FOREIGN & DOMESTIC ..
so how (fitb) dumb are we for literally aiding &
abetting them in their quest to dominate US??
ISAMISTS DO NOT COME IN PEACE.. FAR AS I CAN TELL, THE CHANCES
OF MAKING PEACE WITH SPACE ALIENS ARE SIGNIFICANTLY HIGHER..
==
bg commented:
++
free` @ 1:41 pm #158
Is America Islamophobic?
(every curse in the book & then some here)
Jasser: [I’ll first tell you what it is not- it’s not Islamophobia. If anyone is to blame for the existence of the concept of Islamophobia, if it even exists, it is Muslims who have been unable to articulate a manifestation of Islam which is free of a political state which threatens the sovereignty of the states in which Muslims reside. I don’t subscribe to the existence of the notion of Islamophobia because I believe that we are in just the beginning of a global conflict of political ideologies (Islamism vs. Americanism), and the conflation of “Islamophobia” is intentional by Islamists to deflect Americans and the free world from the necessary debate of political ideologies.]
we ignored the external Islamist threat, they attacked US from without, we’re ignoring the internal IslaMarxist threat, they’re attacking US from within..
and we ain’t seen nothin’ yet ~ not by a long-shot.. *sigh*
==
bg commented:
++
uhg re: bg #160
please pardon typo’s..
==
Barb commented:
Andreas..I am with you. In the Bible..what did God order Israel to do? He said burn the idols and other idol like poles etc that were not of God. Wherever they went and conquered God ordered the idols destroyed!
Why are the Muslims allowed to do so much that is against our belief, yet we cannot do the same? I am so tired of this PC society! Or is it FEAR! I do not fear them. If they behead me..I will be with the Lord!
The reason Europe is tired of the Muslims besides this idiocy …the Muslims are procreating so fast..because they plan to take over the world. They say in 20 years, Muslims will be the majority in the US and there will be Sharia Law and they can elect one of their own as President. …sorry… I think the ignorant already did that!
Barb commented:
Daryl…killer diseases are back too…because of illegal immigrants…even leprosy!
And in that influx of illegals across the borders of the US…come the Islamic terrorists. They fly into South America. Learn Spanish. Come up to Mexico and learn the mannerisms and dress. Then come across the borders with “mules” carrying plutonium. This is No lie! Yet our President is allowing this to happen. Because of him…we WILL have dirty bombs blowing up our major cities. It will be HIS fault and he will have the blood of innocent Americans on his hands. He hates the USA and he IS a Muslim. He is also a malignant narcissist. They lie all the time…and so do Muslims when it comes to speaking to infidels. Too bad people just don’t see this. I feel like the majority of the USA has it’s head in the sand. How many warriors of God are there? Sometimes I feel all alone.
Rosemary Woodhouse commented:
In these United States of America you can not burn a Koran but it’s okay to burn an American flag!?
bg commented:
++
jainphx @ 10:02 am #93
thumbsup..
as if..
(don’t know who some of us think we are, especially the self anointed islamarxist appointed sort of god messiah in the white house.. *sigh*)
==
neomom commented:
God bless the Chips and wading acrosses that speak out for passive resistance and turning the other cheek. It keeps people like me from going completely Old Testament. We seem to have some checks and balances here. One thing for thought:
If the Japanese Army had not been pushed back from India, the theory of passive resistance would have floated down the Ganges next to Ghandis bayonetted beheaded body.
Chip Bennett commented:
@neomom:
I’m not speaking for or against passive resistance.
I’m saying that this particular tactic is not in the best interest of the church.
The Word of Christ – the Word of Truth – is sword enough in and of itself. Preach the Word, and it will pierce the falsehood and evil found in the Koran.
No match – literal or figurative – required.
As for this particular event: I see no love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, or self-control exhibited. Thus, I can come to only one conclusion regarding the presence or influence of the Holy Spirit in carrying it out.
Granny commented:
Peggy, I don’t think the point of this protest is to honor the dead on 911.
Ivehadit, “this guy” is a legitimate pastor of a legitmate church. No investigation required. Most especially no investigation required since whoever he may be, he is fully entitled to lead his congregation as he pleases and fully exercise his Freedom of Speech. It is not only Freedom of Speech for those we approve of.
Jules, you should be able to acquire a koran at any bookstore, in the same section where they sell Bibles. I’ve also seen them at yard sales and thrift stores. I suspect you could also get one easily by calling the Saudi Embassy, but they are not exactly the people I would want to have my name and phone number.
Friend of USA commented:
Sadly I’m afraid that church will be burnt to the ground in the middle of the night…
but I totally understand why they want to burn Korans.
Millions of us ( USA, Canada, Australia, Europe etc…) are fed up with the dhimmitude the “ruling class” is imposing on us.
It will all end in violence and the left will be to blame.
Again.
Arch commented:
Andreas K:
You and I have bumped heads on many issues and I respect your opinions and perspectives. We disagreed on Hiroshima & Nagasaki and still do.
With all due respect, there is a big difference between Europeans and the citizens of United States. Although Obama is trying to make us Europeans, it isn’t working too well. In about 75 days, we will hand him his political a**.
There is a saying here, “Good fences make good neighbors.” We have a lot of guns in America and they make for even better neighbors.
I live in the woods in Alabama. Last spring our 200 acre neighborhood of 50 residences had several break ins and attempted break ins including one when the wife was at home. This is a nice area and we have no intention of putting up with this BS. All of us are armed and most have military experience. We got together and made a plan. Basically, we organized a telephone matrix, set up surveillance cameras, cleared brush and established interlocking fields of fire. Last month, three men and a woman tried a home invasion. They wound up sitting in street with their hand on their heads looking down the muzzles of five 30 caliber rifles when the police rescued them. One of the men said they were just in the wrong neighborhood. The cop looked around and replied, “No sh*t!”
For all the Americans who want to fight islam effectively, I have some good advice. Have babies. muslims are less the 0.4% of the population and they are breeding at about 3 little muslims per woman. American women have 2.05 babies per female. Come on guys, get it up to 3.0. Ladies, it’s a national defense issue, and it’s great fun. How about this bumper sticker, “Make War by making Love.” We could have an all volunteer force on that alone.
Granny commented:
Chip BennettNo Gravatar
August 21st, 2010 | 4:41 pm | #168
As for this particular event: I see no love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, or self-control exhibited. Thus, I can come to only one conclusion regarding the presence or influence of the Holy Spirit in carrying it out.
Aren’t you just full of yourself Chip. I can think of a thousand events that contained not an iota of love, peace, joy, kindness, patience, goodness , etc. where the Holy Spirit most certainly was present and at work. If you’re waiting for peace and rosebuds, might as well buy a rug and figure out where Mecca lies.
Chip Bennett commented:
This church likes to publicize their protesting. Here’s one example of how they demonstrate the love of Christ at such a protest.
Granny commented:
Again, Chip – you tend to your own soul and your own salvation and do not judge theirs. Let them tend to it. Meanwhile, perhaps you would do better to not attempt to divide the Christian community working against islam because some of them don’t happen to fit your particular version of “christianity.”
Chip Bennett commented:
Oh, and Terry Jones also endorses Westboro Baptist. That’s all I really need to know about them.
Chip Bennett commented:
@Granny:
I’m “full of” myself, because I discern an action according to biblical principles? If an event bears no fruit of the Spirit, then it is not of the Spirit, period – regardless of whether or not the Spirit works “through” such an event (which of course God does, in that he effects His purposes in all things, regardless of man’s intentions or purpose).
If you think I’m “waiting for peace and rosebuds”, then you don’t know me very well. I’m not some pacifist. But that doesn’t mean that I shouldn’t be looking for the fruit of the Spirit to be borne out of actions carried out by the church, and in the name of Christ.
You would seem to claim that I cannot and should not do so. Upon what doctrine do you base such a position?
Chip Bennett commented:
@Granny:
Sigh.
Are you just not reading what I’m writing, or are you deliberately ignoring it? How many times do I have to say that I’m not judging their eternal salvation or damnation?!?
Personally, I think you’re just conveniently ignoring that point, because that point is rather inconvenient for your attempted caricature of my position.
I’m not discussing their eternal salvation. I’m discussing the lack of biblical support for their crass political stunt.
Granny commented:
You sound like a pacifist Chipper. You sound like an apologist. You sound exactly like you are judging the members of this church – none of whom you know – by a teeny bit of information you have dug up on the internet. And make no mistake – you are NOT saying “well I don’t agree with them.” What you are saying is “there is no Holy Spirit here” – and THAT, as I have repeatedly pointed out to you, is a judgment that only God has the right to make.
Whether you approve or disapprove is of no consequence.
These people need neither your approval nor your permission. They do not need you to validate their personal relationship with God, Jesus Christ or the Church – not that the Lord has bestowed on you any right whatsoever to do so.
As long as they confess to believe in Christ and to have received salvation, you have no right to dispute with them. Their actions are between them and God.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, like it or not, no matter who they approve or disapprove of, whether or not I will join them in a 911 Koran BBQ, they have the God-given inalienable right to burn the thing as an expression of Free Speech. You are in grave error when you attempt to deny that right because you don’t happen to agree with the means, method or message of their speech. Nobody is asking you to participate or to approve. You have NO RIGHT to approve or disapprove. Not given by God, not given by man.
Teardrop commented:
I have been following this thread since I found it early this morning.
I was, and still am, impressed with the fact that it was not a continued rant of everyone calling everyone else terrible names and denigrating each other.
However, I do feel that it is teetering very close to the edge of becoming just that….a mud slinging contest. Please, can we just agree to disagree and let it go and not spoil the very good and valid points made by all of the posters on this thread?
I can’t help but feel that you are comparing apples to oranges.
I first read this article and was very conflicted about what I read. I too was concerned about a CHURCH burning books. No matter what book….this just feels wrong to me.
After having read the points presented by several of the posters, I am more able to understand the reasoning behind the church’s decision.
I am still conflicted about the right or wrong of the situation, but I feel that I understand the situation in a better light.
Everyone has opinions, thoughts, and feelings and they have the right to express those (Free Speech) same opinions, thoughts and feelings.
We also have freedom of religion. Evidently the people involved in this book burning are moved to make their stand in this particular way.
Although I would not consider it an appropriate way of making a statement, I defend their right to do so.
Thanks for letting me express MY opinions and thoughts on this article….and thank you for some very interesting and enlightening reading.
Granny commented:
Teardrop, #179
QUOTE – We also have freedom of religion. Evidently the people involved in this book burning are moved to make their stand in this particular way.
Although I would not consider it an appropriate way of making a statement, I defend their right to do so. ENDQUOTE
Exactly! Thanks for understanding what I’m trying to say here.
KR commented:
Granny,
You need to step back from the keyboard for a moment and reread what you are typing.
You are saying that Chip can’t make his own personal assessment of this church’s plan, yet you are judging Chip. Anyone and everyone does have the freedom to examine what this church is deciding to do and agree or not.
You are being silly Granny.
Granny commented:
KR, you need to read a little more carefully. I am saying that Chip does not have the right to judge them on the basis of religion, not that he isn’t free to agree or disagree with their BBQ.
Of course your are free to agree or not with what they do. What none of us is free to do is to denigrate this as “unchristian” because none of us is the sole arbiter of what is or isn’t “christian.”
Unfortunately, this war between islam and everyone else is not just a political war – it is a war between religions because religions ARE political systems. Don’t think for a minute that Stalin and Lenin were not god incarnate under communism in the USSR. The same can be said of Mao in China or Hitler. The same is true right here, today. Watch this and pay attention. THIS is religion -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXkBJh9RJy8&feature=related
One thing we all must understand and hold dear every minute of every day is that our Freedoms are Freedoms only as long as they apply to everyone. Freedom of only approved speech is not freedom of speech. Freedom to practice your religion as you see fit cannot be judged by someone else’s standards or someone else’s religious beliefs. Are there limits? Yes – one.
Your religious freedom ends where mine begins.
KR commented:
Granny,
Like Chip stated, he is not judging their salvation or relationship with God, he is making an assessment of whether this is a tactic the church should take since they represent Christ.
I do believe that as people of a free society we should be seriously fighting against any totalitarian schemes of any group. Burning books doesn’t cut it on a serious level. We need education, legislation and law enforcement to fight this.
KR commented:
Just saw this on another site by a commenter and thought I’d pass it along (though it seems this thread is about done):
Islam is not a religion, nor is it a cult.
In its fullest form, it is a complete, total, 100% system of life.
Islam has religious, legal, political, economic, social, and military components. The religious component is a beard for all of the other components.
Islamization begins when there are sufficient Muslims in a country to agitate for their religious privileges.
When politically correct, tolerant, and culturally diverse societies agree to Muslim demands for their religious privileges, some of the other components tend to creep in as well.
Here’s how it works:
As long as the Muslim population remains around or under 2% in any given country, they will be for the most part be regarded as a peace-loving minority, and not as a threat to other citizens. This is the > case in:
United States — Muslim 0..6%
Australia — Muslim 1.5%
Canada — Muslim 1.9%
China — Muslim 1.8%
Italy — Muslim 1.5%
Norway — Muslim 1.8%
At 2% to 5%, they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups, often with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs. This is happening in:
Denmark — Muslim 2%
Germany — Muslim 3.7%
United Kingdom — Muslim 2.7%
Spain — Muslim 4%
Thailand — Muslim 4.6%
From 5% on, they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population. For example, they will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature halal on their shelves — along with threats for failure to comply. This is occurring in:
France — Muslim 8%
Philippines — 5%
Sweden — Muslim 5%
Switzerland — Muslim 4.3%
The Netherlands — Muslim 5.5%
Trinidad & Tobago — Muslim 5.8%
At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves (within their ghettos) under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islamists is to establish Sharia law over the entire world.
When Muslims approach 10% of the population, they tend to increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions. In Paris , we are already seeing car-burnings. In Russia, grade-schools were attacked. Any non-Muslim action offends Islam and results in uprisings and threats, such as in Amsterdam, with opposition to Mohammed cartoons and films about Islam. Such tensions are seen daily, particularly in Muslim sections, in:
Guyana — Muslim 10%
India — Muslim 13.4%
Israel — Muslim 16%
Kenya — Muslim 10%
Russia — Muslim 15%
After reaching 20%, nations can expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings, and the burnings of Christian churches and Jewish synagogues, such as in:
Ethiopia — Muslim 32.8%
At 40%, nations experience widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks, and ongoing militia warfare, such as in:
Bosnia — Muslim 40%
Chad — Muslim 53.1%
Lebanon — Muslim 59.7%
From 60%, nations experience unfettered persecution of non-believers of all other religions (including non-conforming Muslims), sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon, and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels, such as in:
Albania — Muslim 70%
Malaysia — Muslim 60.4%
Qatar — Muslim 77.5%
Sudan — Muslim 70%
After 80%, expect daily intimidation and violent jihad, some State-run ethnic cleansing, beheadings, stoning, and even some genocide, as these nations drive out the infidels, and move toward 100% Muslim, such as has been experienced and in some ways is on-going in:
Bangladesh — Muslim 83%
Egypt — Muslim 90%
Gaza — Muslim 98.7%
Indonesia — Muslim 86.1%
Iran — Muslim 98%
Iraq — Muslim 97%
Jordan — Muslim 92%
Morocco — Muslim 98.7%
Pakistan — Muslim 97%
Palestine — Muslim 99%
Syria — Muslim 90%
Tajikistan — Muslim 90%
Turkey — Muslim 99.8%
United Arab Emirates — Muslim 96%
StrngernFiction commented:
The number of comments on this post is a testament to the correctness of this plan to burn Korans.
Chip Bennett commented:
@Granny:
And you sound like you’re not listening to a word I’m saying. Where have I advocating pacifism against the political encroachment of Islam and Sharia? Where have I said anything remotely resembling an apologist position regarding Islam?
The answer is: nowhere. You are (somehow) inferring it, based on your preconceived notions regarding my comments here.
Islam, and its encroachment upon human rights and God-given freedoms, should absolutely be opposed. But such opposition does not absolve us of simultaneously fulfilling our responsibility as ambassadors for Christ.
No. I have reiterated ad nauseum that I am exercising discernment, not judgement. If you question my discernment on the matter, then you tell me: how does this act exemplify love? peace? patience? kindness? goodness? faithfulness? gentleness? self-control?
And failing exemplifying any of those: on what do you discern that this act bears the fruit of the Spirit?
I am saying that making a blatantly public spectacle of burning Korans does not exemplify the fruit of the Spirit, and therefore is not borne of the Spirit. I am not claiming that any individual person participating in said event is not saved. Only you are drawing that specious and absurd conclusion.
No, to the contrary: we are absolutely called to discern between right and wrong, between the the spirit of the world and the Holy Spirit. Here are several biblical references to being called to exercise such discernment:
(Acts 4:19)
(Phil 1:9-11)
(I Cor. 2:15)
(I Cor. 5:12)
(I Cor. 6:5)
(I Cor. 10:15)
(I Cor. 11:13)
(II John 1:9-10)
So, I would say that Scripture is perfectly clear on the matter of the responsibility of believers to be discerning.
On this point, we agree.
And still, you remain the only one bringing up anyone’s personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Why do you insist upon doing so? It’s entirely irrelevant.
Absurd – proven by the absurdity of you disputing with me, while claiming that I have no right to dispute with others.
Take for example the Westboro Baptist kooks: I don’t question the personal salvation of any member of that group, but given the utter hatred they preach, I certainly discern that their group is not a Christian church.
I’ll return to the words of Paul:
(I Cor. 10:23)
And again:
(Eph. 4:29)
(It doesn’t sound like Paul was a staunch advocate of Christians exercising their freedom of speech without limit.)
You’re right: each of us has the God-given right of free speech. But each of us will also be held accountable for how we exercise that right.
How does my statement that what they are doing is contrary to Scripture constitute an attempt to deny them their right to exercise their freedom of speech? I’m not saying they can’t – or shouldn’t – legally exercise that right. I’m just saying that what they’re doing is contrary to Scripture.
Wait: now I’m not even allowed to exercise my freedom of speech to speak out in disapproval of this act? Seriously: do you think through the logic of what you’re saying?
Sojourner commented:
bg
August 21st, 2010 | 2:10 pm | #160
WAKE THE HELL UP & DEFEND YOUR COUNTRY OR YOUR GRANDCHILDREN WILL BE BOWING TO MECCA.. and mark
my words, that will be the only left of America you can bank on…
I could not agree with you more….& the link@146.. meant as a point of information only & the conclusion he reaches, not one I share.
Chip Bennett commented:
@Granny:
So, if anyone claims to be a Christian, I have to accept as being biblical, without question, anything that person says or does?
Jeremiah Wright claims to be a Christian. Does that mean that I have to accept, without question, all the tenets of Black Liberation Theology as being perfectly biblical?
Joseph Smith claimed to be a Christian. Does that mean that I have to accept, without question, the claim that we’re all going to be angels, and each rule our own planet in the afterlife?
Fred Phelps claims to be a Christian. Does that mean that I have to accept, without question, his claim that God “hates fags”, and that God is killing our soldiers because America has not taken Phelps’ ideal stance toward homosexuality?
Let’s see (again) what Scripture says:
(I Tim. 1:3)
AuntieMadder commented:
I’m with Andreas K. on this one. In fact, there’s nothing more I could say about Islam, about the Islamization of the West or about burning Qurans that Andreas K. hasn’t already said and said better than I can. Maybe I see this his way because for the last couple of years I’ve been reading from alternative news sites (such as Atlas Shrugs and Jihad Watch) about the Islamization of Europe.
Islamization of the US is about a decade behind that of western Europe. At the rate we’re heading toward Dar al Islam (an Islamic nation), however, we’ll be where Europe is now in much less than ten years. If the Ground Zero Victory Mosque moves forward and is built as planned by the Cordoba Initiative, we can cut that ten years of catching up in half.
If you want to understand Andreas K.’s views and opinions on Islam, as well as the Quran-burning event, read about how western European nations have become Islamic nations and how Muslims have pushed and cried foul and used the Christian values and beliefs against Europeans to the benefit of European Dar al Islam. Read those reports from Europe if you want to a peek into the very near future of America if we continue to be as respectful and tolerant of Islam as we have been and are now.
By the way, Andreas K., in which European country do you live in?
Chip Bennett commented:
This is the man you’re defending. He’s running a cult.
(Oh, that’s right: I’m not allowed to question the doctrinal integrity of the preaching of the Jim Joneses of the world.)
AuntieMadder commented:
Jules
August 21st, 2010 | 1:04 pm | #155
I don’t think infidels can pick up the Quran at local mosques, free or otherwise. I could be wrong about this if giving away Qurans is part of their current taqyah-laden game of playing nicey-nice so we lower our guard. “Welcome to my parlor, said the spider to the fly.”
Under normal circumstances, however, infidels aren’t even to touch the Quran. We (non-Muslims) are one of the 11 unclean, or impure, things according to Islam, right up there with urine, excrement, sperm, dogs, pigs, and the sweat of the excrement-eating camel, and several others. (How does it feel to know what your Muslim “friends” really think about you, for those of you who have them.) Muslims are to avoid giving the Quran to an infidel and should forcibly take it from one of us if we have it in our hands.
donh commented:
Girolamo Savonarola is a significant historical figure. … http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Girolamo_Savonarola.jpg His preachings lead to the bonfire of the vanities. Savonarola reminded a corrupt church society of the immediate and real dangers of SIN to the fate of human salvation. The italian state was weakening to foreign invasion and the spoiled indulgances of the ruling elites grew widespread resentments. Savonarola preached prophesies agaisnt Italy of consequences for its wayward fascinations with sin, and they came to pass , which drew a following as well as contempt from fearful elites. There were cowards in the Church who demanded Savonarola’s excommunication and death for ” rocking the boat” . His martyrdom was of great influence to following generations. Christ did not die on the cross to establish a social country club .
Moriyah commented:
ROAD TRIP!!!!!
Hera commented:
I’m sure President Obama and those muslims who talk about the first amendment and freedom of religion. Also understand that freedom of religion and free speech extend to Dove church and their right to burn the koran. Isn’t freedom a wonderful thing.
tahDeetz commented:
Protestants didn’t earn the moniker just for being ‘nice’ & ‘conciliatory.’
tD
bg commented:
++
this is the man who not only celebrated 9/11, but condones the murdering all infidels (including Muslims) according to his Radical Islamist interpretation of the Koran, support of Sharia Law & outright denial Islam had anything to do with the 9/11 attacks, as his wife’s plans to build a private “victory room” dedicated to the Islamic WTC martyrs in the September 11 Museum moves towards fruition, (see link below)..
Shariah Index Project
[Since 2006, Rauf has coordinated a series of international meetings with Shariah experts ranging from Muslim Brotherhood associates to Iran's Mohammad Javad Larijani, "who," as Brim reports, "has justified torture of Iranian dissidents as legal punishments under Shariah law."
That's not all Larijani, who heads Iran's Human Rights Council (for real), has justified. He has also justified Shariah-sanctioned stoning. As Anne Bayefsky recently reported, Rauf's picture with Larijani (and former U.S. Ambassador to
the Organization of the Islamic Conference Sada Cumber) disappeared from the Cordoba Initiative Web site, too.
So much to hide - but the Shariah is out of the bag.]
and please check out:
bg #25/26/27
re: the September 11 Museum, the Rauf connection,
and the steps Islamists are taking to Islamize it ..
the Imam, who is assigned to “spread Islam right from the WTC rubble.”
bottom line: Imam Rauf Khan does not come in peace..
==
bg commented:
++
AuntieMadder @ 8:36 pm #192
re: [“Welcome to my parlor, said the spider to the fly.”]
dang.. said that the first time ever i heard the name Barack Hussein Obama.. but so to speak interpreted it as Obama being the spider, America/ns the fly..
==
Militant Conservative commented:
Teardrop post#179
Wuss, not willing to fight for your freedoms??
Not even willing to have a bare knuckles debate??
This “Can’t we all just get along attitude will get you killed”. Grow a set and understand the musterds started this now Americas chice is simple. Fight them over there or here. They are not going to stop.
GET IT YET?! powder is dry.
Teardrop commented:
“Militant Conservative
August 22nd, 2010 #199
Teardrop post#179
Wuss, not willing to fight for your freedoms??
Not even willing to have a bare knuckles debate??
This “Can’t we all just get along attitude will get you killed”. Grow a set and understand the musterds started this now Americas chice is simple. Fight them over there or here. They are not going to stop.
GET IT YET?! powder is dry.”
First off, YES, I am more than willing to fight for my freedoms…and I DO fight for my freedoms.
In addition to that, I support my husband in HIS fight for our freedoms as well as my SONS fight for our freedoms.
My husband is a retired Marine and my SON is currently serving in the Army.
We have several guns and a nice piece of property in which to HELP us protect those freedoms that you seem so sure that I am not willing to fight for.
My post on here was to thank the people for a debate of a couple of issues that were important to me and to let them know that I appreciated their brevity and that they were not turning the debate into a mud slinging, name calling brawl.
Now, that having been said, here you pipe in and start calling ME names and trying to malign MY character, of which you know nothing about.
As usual, I am sorry I even tried to communicate with anyone on the internet.
Iconoclast commented:
Rather than let the heat from the burning toilet tissue go to waste, how about toasting the terrorists in Gitmo at the same time? We clean up twice as much garbage per match lit.
Alternatively, use it to grill racks of baby backs, drink lots of beer and urinate on the ashes to ensure the fire is out once all the cooking is finished.
In either case, spread the ashes in the feed lot of a piggery.
Enough of this idiotic, insane, PC cowardice . . . er, “tolerance.” The “religion of peace” revealed its true nature, a crazed cult of Iron Age savages embracing the demented ravings of a mad 7th Century pedophile / pederast, on 9-11-2001. We eradicate it as we did the Nazis or we teach its surviving practitioners to fear our anger – nothing else will protect the civilized world from these barbaric fanatics.
bg commented:
++
Coming Soon to a Town Near You
[Sayeed is also the director of the MLFA (Muslim Legal Fund of America). This fund is a coalition of Islamists including CAIR (Council on American Islamic Relations), named an unindicted co-conspirator in the Holy Land Foundation trial; the MAS (Muslim American Society); and the American Muslim Task Force associated with the far left, such as the ANSWER Coalition. The organization clearly is a mouthpiece for the Holy Land Foundation victimology propaganda and believes among other absurd apologetics that Sami al-Arian is "wrongly accused" - note - nothing about Muslim responsibility in Islamist-inspired terror. The goal of Al-Furqaan as stated on their website is to put a Qur'an in "every household, hotel room, hospital, college dorm, and retirement home in America". The translation is endorsed by the toxic Zakir Naik, and his entire Wahhabi-Deobandi proselytizing mission for Islamism (i.e., political Islam).
A little research also on the Al-Furqaan site itself demonstrates some concerning ideologies. For example, on the Book of Signs website (a subsidiary of Al-Furqaan), al-Furqaan posts an interview with radical convert Yvonne Ridley in their "Myths and Realities" section, directing viewers to a 57 minute absurd and nauseating apologetic for the Taliban and against the U.K and the U.S. She is a known defender of one of the primary enemies of the United States, Mullah Omar of the Taliban. She is a British citizen who preaches to Muslims that she hopes God forgives any who join the UK police force, telling Muslims that the UK police gun down Muslims.]
RTWT!!
much more here & here & here..
==
MH Canada commented:
As retribution to all the victims of honour rapes, lashes, stonings, and beheadings: before the Qurans are burnt, they should be dipped into a bucket of hog manure; wrapped in a white cloth; given a mock stoning; rinsed in gasoline; then thrown into the bonfire. Video tape the whole thing and put it on the internet.
The difference between Christianity and Islam is that they will want to kill us; and if Muslims did the same thing to the Bible, we would feel hurt but we would forgive them.