Unbelievable… Seniors Not Allowed to Pray Before Meals at Nursing Home (Updated)
Posted by Jim Hoft on Monday, May 10, 2010, 12:19 AM
This is unbelievable… Now they won’t allow our seniors to pray before meals.
When did America become a communist regime?
(Flickr)
Senior citizens are no longer allowed to pray before meals at the Port Wentworth’s Ed Young Senior Citizens Center near Savannah, Georgia. Local officials say the meals are now provided with federal money and therefore the seniors are not allowed to pray before meals.
WSBTV reported:
Preston Blackwelder proudly showed off a painting of his grandmother that had hung next to the front door of his Port Wentworth home.
She was the woman who led him to God, Blackwelder said Friday.
And with that firm religious footing, Blackwelder said it would be preposterous to stop praying before meals at Port Wentworth’s Ed Young Senior Citizens Center near Savannah because of a federal guideline.
“She would say pray anyway,” Blackwelder said of his grandmother. “She’d say don’t listen.”
But Senior Citizens Inc. officials said Friday the meals they are contracted by the city to provide to Ed Young visitors are mostly covered with federal money, which ushers in the burden of separating church and state.
On Thursday, the usual open prayer before meals at the center was traded in for a moment of silence.
The dilemma is being hashed out by the Port Wentworth city attorney, said Mayor Glenn “Pig” Jones.
Tim Rutherford, Senior Citizens Inc. vice president, said some of his staff recently visited the center and noticed people praying shortly before lunch was served. Rutherford said his company provides meals like baked chicken, steak tips and rice and salads at a cost of about $6 a plate. Seniors taking the meals pay 55 cents and federal money foots the rest of the bill, Rutherford said.
“We can’t scoff at their rules,” he said of federal authorities. “It’s a part of the operational guidelines.”
Hat Tip Carol C.
Our forefathers are rolling over in their graves.
This is abuse.
UPDATE: The nursing home has reversed its policy.
ADVERTISEMENT
-
Featured Story:
Busted!… Obama Headlined a DEMOCRAT SOCIALISTS OF AMERICA Event in 1996 **FLIER**
Published May 24, 2012 at 8:46 pm - 87 Comments
Bonhomme commented:
Can we please have a moment of silence to observe the death of our constitution?
cody commented:
What will it take for America to WAKE UP?
Has someone asked Colin Powell, the Rev. Dr. R.W. and others if they are glad they helped foist this socialist “Christian” president on Americans?
Would a GOP House majority with veto power be enough to stop the USA from becoming the USSA in 2010?
Dominique commented:
This is becoming freaking insane. My word. What the heck else will our government think of next? Don’t answer that. I don’t want to know.
I say, pray any way. Our right to pray doesn’t come from man. It comes from God. Period!
Shawn D. commented:
This has got to be some kinds of joke? Right?…No? Ohh thats right, we have to stand by the separation of church and state. I almost forgot! But wait! Where is that in the Constitution again? That’s right, it is not IN there!
What kind of fools would stop elderly people from praying before a meal? It is getting more and more pathetic by the day, and our society keeps slipping and slipping away to nothing while we enforce rules that do not even exist and do not enforce rules that actually do! This is like the bizzarro world!
I would say “God Bless America”… but not sure if this website is funded by any federal money..
Jeff Brodhead commented:
It is time to put this LIE into it’s grave!
Congress SHALL make no law….
SCOTUS CANNOT MAKE LAW, only hold law & cases up to Constitution…
POTUS cannot make law…
THE MONEY IS NOT FEDERAL MONEY!
I cannot type the words which are fighting to come out right now! This is total IDIOCITY!
bingo commented:
This is not a time for sitting there and crying about the “death of our constitution”. It’s the time for public outrage at the bastardization of “Separation of church and state” which praying over a meal does not violate. Don’t sit back and whine like a wimp, do something.
Wear a crucifix to work and fight your boss legally if he gives you a problem.
God God God God God God God God God God God
C-Christian Soldier commented:
Out – Rage and law suit time–501 c3 was an un-Constitutional law set forth by Johnson-to shut his critics up!!!
it never should have been put in place-Christian “leaders” who knew the history of the US were no-where to be found—
BTW-I agree w/ bingo # 6 !!!
C-CS
ogee commented:
This is not the meaning of “separation of church and state”. That’s not what it is intended for. This is ackbasswards. I say it’s all of our huge % tax money that paid for the meals so seniors, pray all you want. No one can censor you. This is still a free country. Praying is free speech and they cannot stop anyone from praying. Do not fear.
Andreas K. commented:
You all know I’m against organised religion (since history proves it’s only after power and money anyway.) You all know I’m pretty much an atheist. And you all know that I think praying is a load of crook and that god, if it exists, will judge us by our deeds and not by what tree we barked at.
But this is getting ridiculous. Whatever happened to freedom of religion? If these seniors want to pray before their meals… LET THEM! I don’t have to agree with what they do, but I don’t have any right to stop them from doing it. And as long as they don’t blow up other people, fight some kind of holy war against unbelievers, as long as they just sit there and pray a little before eating… what’s the big f*cking deal?!
It’s like those atheists who want to remove things like the 10 commandements from court rooms.
Such people give atheists a bad name. They’re just as zealous as the people they try to fight. And while trying to fight “religious” zealouts (“religious” here should really be “Christian”) they never really hit them, but rather take it out on the average Joe who never showed any signs of fanaticism.
But let me guess, if these seniors were mohammedans, none of this would happen, right?
Ria commented:
wOW! Senoirs can’t pray before meals anymore because of federal funding? But Federal money can be used to abort babies and we have no say in that.
wanumba commented:
Total b.s. Individuals with a little bit of bureaucratic power and personal anti-religious biases are using this as an excuse to shut prayer down.
“Separation of church and state “- as regards to … chow time. What a crock.
The point up previously there is right – it’s the citizen’s money, NOT the “Federal Government’s” money.
silent_rage commented:
What do you mean they are now provided with federal money?
That implies they weren’t before some point in time.
Right Wing Extreme commented:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
Cmate commented:
Just another little reminder from the libs, “The Constitution means what We say it means, NOW SHUT UP AND SCOOP YOUR GRUEL!!!
Time to smash the looking glass..VOTE
Gini commented:
Just what would happen if a senior decided to say Grace? Call the police and have the senior removed from the premises? Exactly what could be done to the offender? Hauled off to jail?
I wish I lived near this centre as I certainly would test the waters on this.
The bureaucrats bluff must be called and they must be stopped.
averagemelon commented:
They should all pray louder together. Compliance is all that is needed to obtain power. If they kick them out of the nursing home over prayer, all Christians and AMERICANS should boycott the facility until it has to close so they can experience the fruit of their labor.
Americans need to stand up and BE American. LIVE American. Stop listening and performing dog tricks for those who are UNAmerican. This is how we get our country back one piece at a time. Whatever the cost, DO NOT COMPLY.
Mats commented:
Where is the “christian” Al Sharpton when we need him?
Seems like he is more concerned in helping illegals than helping poor old white christian folks.
Dixie commented:
I find it interesting that you chose to leave out the one little line where they were told they could pray to themselves. I’m not saying I agree with this but you are misleading. I’ve seen you do this before. I hope the rule is changed that no group prayer is allowed but I think you shouldn’t twist reports. The gov’t screws up enough that you don’t need to leave out important information to make a point.
Andreas K. commented:
It’s a witch hunt that goes after Christians.
Remember that one nurse in the UK, who was told she’s not allowed to wear a little cross under her uniform because it’s some kind of “infection risk”? An argument which I could never follow, because it made no sense at all.
While in the same country mohammedan women, who study medicine, are allowed to keep wearing long sleeves, since their religion demands it, but there’s no word about an infection risk? And those long sleeves are a huge infection risk.
It’s a witch hunt, nothing else. A witch hunt started and done by “atheists”, who will be exterminated once their new masters (mohammedans) are in charge. They just don’t realize that yet.
Many years ago, when I was training to be a nurse, I had to deal with many little old women who were Christians. Some of them actively prayed in hospital. I found it stupid, I admit that, but I also thought “Ok, it’s their decision, if it makes them feel better, fine.”
They’re going after Christians now. They’ve always been going after Jews. Buddhists will be next (after all, there are many similarities between Jesus’ words and Buddha’s teaching, even in the rules, for example the 10 commandements and the 10 rules for Buddhist pilgrims in Japan share many similar, even identical, points.) Then the Hindus. Then the rest.
They will never go after the mohammedans, though. Cause the mohammedan faith we all must respect. The rest? F*ck the rest.
It’s not just “unamerican.” It stands against everything a free, democratic society should stand for.
Andreas K. commented:
Dixie
May 10th, 2010 | 3:47 am | #20
They can pray as group, they can pray loud, I wouldn’t even care. They’re not doing anything evil, even I, as atheist, say that.
The difference is, they’re Christians.
If they were mohammedans NOBODY would dare to do anything even remotely like that. That’s how it is.
kay commented:
I’m of 3 minds about this. First, being Catholic and this happening in the south, I’m going to assume that its most likely a protestant area, maybe Baptist. The article stated that they had to stop doing an OPEN prayer so I’m going to assume again that this meant it was LED by someone before the meal started. If the above assumptions are true then yes, I would have a problem with this because if I were jewish or buddhist, I’d like to say my prayer quietly in a moment of silence.
*
However, my moment of silence at lunch/dinner must be adhered to at all times and that means no prayer rugs put up along the hallways of the old age home and people dropping to their knees 5 times a day as a horn sounds over the PA system.
*
Next, if everyone is at a home that is based on a clear religious preference like “Oak Trees Baptist Home for the Elderly”, then I think it should be a citizen uprising at the home to say the prayer out loud and screw the food servicing company. I mean, what are they going to do? Withhold food?
*
That being said, the article stated that their meals cost $6, the elderly pay 55 cents and the gov’t picks up the rest. Fine. These people have paid their taxes. I’ve got no problem so far. HOWEVER, if the cost of the meal went higher for some because of religious dietary requirements, then there can be no religion regarding food as its on my tax dollar and I’m not paying more for some and less for others because of their religious preferences.
*
Nuanced enough for you?
Chip Bennett commented:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
What part of that is unclear?
Gini commented:
kay
May 10th, 2010 | 3:56 am | #23
Most Christians, Catholics and Protestants, generally say Grace aloud. Perhaps this habit is confined to northern Jews, but I find that observant Jews also say Grace aloud.
Usually one person at the table says it for all.
This is simply one petty bureaucrat trying to test his power and being a bully.
Someone must defy them.
BigAlSouth commented:
“Operational Guidelines” my butt.
Quote me the chapter and verse on your little “operational guidelines” and let me be the judge you petty little bureaucrat.
squeaky commented:
sometimes freedom isn’t wisked away in a big push – sometimes it’s sliced and diced in little pieces that seem not worth worrying about until
you put all the pieces together and always after-the-fact. fox morning interviewed a high school student who drew a picture of the American flag and her teacher called it offensive. another student drew a picture of obama and received a favorable response.
UncleZeb commented:
If the govt bans prayer then there is no seperation of church and state. It is the state at that point getting involved by banning church. Govt needs to mind its own business, which is the business of defense and very basic infrastructure. We are being brought down by the “there ought to be a law” crowd.
John Fembup commented:
I know several people who work for the federal government here in Hartford. Their salaries come from federal money. Someone needs to tell them that they can no longer belong to or attend a church.
Robert commented:
I wonder if Senior Citizens, Inc. follows
every other rule so … religiously.
TaSS commented:
Government has over stepped and has gone against the constitution of the United States.
They are not allowed to interfere in citizen’s rights to practice religion.
I wonder if they were facing Mecca several times a day whether the nursing home would have disallowed?
Stay out of our lives and our religion.
Flavia commented:
bet they could pray if they were praying to Allah…
senior commented:
Tax money trumps God? Wow! Isn’t there a school in Minnesota that is basically a mosque? TIZA. Federal funds are pumped in there and I hear nothing about it. Seniors can pray and they should, out loud, before and after the feds feed them.
MathMom commented:
Would it be permissible for the Seniors give a prayer of thanks to God for the Federal Government?
Cindy commented:
As a non-religious person…this is f**king upsetting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I’ve always respected everyone’s faith and their faith is a part of them…and this is sad and disgusting that these people cannot prey!!!!!!!!!!!! People usually say prayer privately and it bothers NO ONE.
Now it’s OFFENSIVE to take a small prayer by yourself to thank God for the meal before you??????????????? this is absolutely sad.
TimeTraveller commented:
And yet, various levels of government agencies have given royal accent to the construction of the Cordoba House mosque just blocks away from Ground Zero.
The Lord is my Shepherd; I shall not want.
He maketh me to lie down in green pastures:
He leadeth me beside the still waters.
He restoreth my soul:
He leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for His name’ sake.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil: For thou art with me;
Thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me.
Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies;
Thou annointest my head with oil; My cup runneth over.
Fuzzy commented:
This is an absolute outrage! I am fed the heck up with the liberal lunacy about the First Amendment. Federal money going to a nursing home is NOT the establishment of a state religion. This has to be stopped.
squeaky commented:
so much for respecting the elderly. like the true
predators that they are – the elderly and the young are fair targets with the new order. push
back at every assault and make them show their cards and who they are.
Brad commented:
This is an “Onion piece”? Surely… What a parody. The world has gone mad!
KR commented:
A little known fact:
The First Amendment states that the FEDERAL government shall not establish a religion, but the individual states were allowed to and did early on.
Arch commented:
Chip Bennett is spot on.
If I were there, I would pray aloud anyway. If soon a**hole attorney wants to make an issue, I would counter sue for frivolous litigation and file a civil rights charge with the Department of Justice charging that the government was violating my First Amendment right to practice my religion.
The first clause in First Amendment reads, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;”
Lawyers mistakenly named this the “establishment clause”, but they ignore the “prohibiting the free exercise” clause.
We have freedom of religion, not freedom from religion, but let’s take this absurd logic to the next level.
Does this apply to muslims?
Airports are built with government funds, so should we prohibit worship there?
Plazas on interstate highways were constructed with public funds. Wouldn’t this ban also apply there?
Streets are public property. Should we stop Catholics from parading an image of St Patrick?
Of course not!
This whole idea ignores the basic concept of religious freedom.
bitterclinger commented:
Dixie, the part you say Gateway commenters are leaving out isn’t the salient part of this argument. The most relevant part of this outrage is that PEOPLE ARE BEING SHUT UP WHERE G-D IS CONCERNED. Yeah, they ALLOW you to say a silent prayer as long as no one else is exposed to it. Don’t be so disingenuous.
archer52 commented:
Jim,
I’d like to see someone in the blogs, like you, have the group pull this regulation that prevents prayer before a federally provided meal. Sounds more like a bureaucrat nutjob enforcing a personal vendetta. We have video upon video of soldiers praying before meals, praying in uniform, praying before battle, all eating, wearing or shooting federally provided material.
And I would love to see that Barry guy from “I don’t believe in God so I sue everyone” organization that makes FOX all the time defend this policy. Even he would have to wonder.
Pieretto commented:
This is really unbelievable.
nadadhimmi commented:
We became a Communist Regime from the instant Obama, “The Kenyan”, usurped the Presidency. No laws apply to progressives/communists. They “rule’ by dictate. Until they are thrown out by the people, sometimes by elections, but usually by force of arms.
Militant Conservative commented:
I’ll obey the laws when our leaders do. I am a criminal every day and I do not care. This is what Anarchy looks like, when there is no rule of law. piss on em. powder is dry.
Mark1957 commented:
This has to stop ! Next they will ban saying grace in your home because every crop gets some kind of federal farm subsidy. Your daily bread gets wheat subsidies, your corn flakes and the milk all get subidized.
The Constitution says freedom OF Religion, not freedom From Religion !!!!
CoolCzech commented:
A truly horrifying example of how dependence on government inevitably destroys your rights. Of course, the seniors might not be so dependent on government if they hadn’t been herded into social security and medicare to begin with, and hadn’t had such a huge chunk of their lifetime earnings confiscated to fund the federal beheamoth. But now that the government has them in the classic Serf position, that is exactly what they are – beholden, and controlled down to the most intimate moments of their lives.
What happens if a senior refuses to remain silent, and prays anyway? Will the Party of Compassion insist he be starved to death?
jonyjoe101 commented:
In the military(navy) we got 100 percent government food and no one ever prevented anyone from praying before eating.
Everynight they even said the evening prayer, they even had a government payed chaplain onboard the ship.
No one ever complains about seperation of state and church in the military, it is what it is.
Churches get government food to feed the poor, they pray before eating.
Something not right here.
Arch commented:
Ignore this rule and pray anyway. It’s clearly unconstitutional.
Sunspots commented:
So a group of seniors cannot say a prayer together in the dining room of their senior center (is it a privately owned center?) before lunch, where no one outside can hear, and I would assume the majority of those at the center want to have said before meals, all because the food is paid for with federal dollars; but a whole town can be subjected to the muslim call to prayer being blasted over a loud speaker five times a day, a call that can be heard over public streets, public sidewalks, public parks, public buildings, and can absolutely interfere with private citizens right to peaceful enjoyment of their private homes? Umm…what is wrong with this picture?
Andreas K. commented:
kay
May 10th, 2010 | 3:56 am | #23
I’m of 3 minds about this. First, being Catholic and this happening in the south, I’m going to assume that its most likely a protestant area, maybe Baptist. The article stated that they had to stop doing an OPEN prayer so I’m going to assume again that this meant it was LED by someone before the meal started. If the above assumptions are true then yes, I would have a problem with this because if I were jewish or buddhist, I’d like to say my prayer quietly in a moment of silence.
I’m 100% sure that a Buddhist would not complain about them praying loud. A Buddhist would most likely watch and listen and maybe even agree on parts that are said. Buddhism is not based on dogma, but rather on what you experience yourself (even Buddha said so to his followers, he said “don’t blindly follow dogma, find out yourselves”, actually, what he said is a lot longer than that, but I’m too lazy now.)
Even if someone leads them in the prayer it shouldn’t be an issue. That doesn’t mean that everyone has to join. And if there are Jews (possibly) or Buddhists (not very likely) among them, they could join, or pray loud after them.
Sunspots, why do you think “islam” means “submission”? Our so called leaders have been submitting to it for years. I’ve seen it in London. Leave the tourist areas and you enter mohammed-land with its own set of rules.
Mermaz commented:
This is why we need to stop taking Govt money. Once you take their money, they can dictate to you. It’s the same reason people think 10th amendment fights will never happen because states don’t want to lose any of their Fed money.
I’m aggravated right now that my town park and sidewalk outside it have not been cleaned up since our flooding 2 months ago. (and I only mean cleaned up – not repaired) It’s because the town is waiting for FEMA to survey the damage so we can get their money to repair the bridge to the park because we are too lazy to raise the funding for the bridge oursleves.
We need to be more like Nashville right now and KY during the freeze and MS & AL after Katrina. We need to show the Feds we can take care of ourselves, that we don’t need their (our) money. That’s the other trap they have us in…we know it’s our money and we rationalize Federal assistance because it is only reclaiming our own money. But in order to get our own money back, we have to submit to their rules. NO MORE SUBMISSION. We need to spread the Christian way of life of taking care of ourselves and our neighbors.
TXBitty commented:
Meals on Wheels started Senior Citizens, Inc 50 years ago.
Check out mowaa.org for a list of donors and sponsors. From what I read at councilonaging.com, 45% of the Meals on Wheels program is thru government funding, the rest of money is thru donations and fundraising. Tons of volunteers too. United Way also gives to Senior Citizens, Inc.
Do donors know how their money is being spent? Couldn’t find financials for Senior Citizens, Inc..still looking. How about the elderly that have meals delivered to their homes, can they pray?
Di commented:
Everyone needs to wake up. Christianity is under attack. We as Christians need to stick together no matter how we worship God. By that I mean your religion practice.
United in God We Stand, Divided we will fall.
Saint Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle.
Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray;
and do Thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host -
by the Divine Power of God -
cast into hell, satan and all the evil spirits,
who roam throughout the world seeking the ruin of souls.
Amen.
GOD PLEASE HELP US!
John Bagwell commented:
This is unbelievable! Those patients should pray any time they feel like it. Let the government take away their food and let them fall to disease and death. Then we can start charging those responsible for murder, one by one, ending with this Abomination of a President. I’ll bet if a muslim patient wants to pray to Allah before he or she eats nobody will say a word. It makes me want to crush these idiots.
Zabrina commented:
Push back. Get Gov. Sonny Perdue on it. Get Neal Boortz on it. Get local churches over there to pray with the seniors, or to picket outside. Get a granny on Greta Van Sustren. Shame in public and by name whoever thinks they can get away with this tripe. This will not stand! Wake up, America.
pamlinson commented:
And the number to call is 1-912-964-5411
Chip Bennett commented:
@Dixie:
Irrelevant. The government has no right whatsoever to ban private or corporate prayer. If the nursing home residents wish to partake in a corporate prayer (see: freedom of assembly), then they have every right to do so, and the federal government – and its rules – can go pound sand.
MJ commented:
No one is stopping me from giving thanks to my God for a meal. Just tell them you are praying over the non-federally-funded portion of the meal. What a pile of manure!
Pat the First commented:
Some Christian legal organization needs to step in and help these people. These people should be allowed to pray aloud, thanking God for the food He has provided.
I have known enough Jewish people to know that the majority of them are not offended by Christians praying. Do not care about Muslims or Buddhists because they are such a small minority of our country I just don’t think that their opinion should rule over the majority.
Our country is on the slippery slope down. Eventually, the US will be as irrelevant is Europe is.
TXBitty commented:
MJ…Amen!
Paul A\\\'Barge commented:
This is the mutt in Georgia behind all of this:
http://www.linkedin.com/in/timarutherford
Anyone have a LinkedIn upgraded account and want to send this guy an InMail?
Let him have it.
TalkinKamel commented:
I suspect the next step will be forbidding the old folks to have visits from priests, lay ministers, rabbis, pastors or just friendly fellow church members, who come to talk to them, and pray with them.
Of course if these were Mohammedans we were talking about, none of this would apply. In fact, they’d probably be piping in the Islamic call to prayer 5 times a day (even if the non-Islamic residents objected), bringing in a imam to lead the prayers and special halal meat, for the meals.
raybojabo commented:
” Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.” The Federal Government is ordained to be the stewards of our “Freedom of Religion” along with our other inaleable rights, not its executioner. The constitution makes this perfectly clear. The fact that they choose to exercise their right to pray over their government issued meal doesn’t even come close to making a “law respecting an establishment of religion”. They don’t create law by praying, no law is forcing them to pray.
Cindy commented:
at chip bennett, yes, that was misleading if they left out, they could pray individually, amongst themselves.
But to expand on the subject, what if four ladies who sit at dinner every night chose to say a prayer “loud enough” as a conversation and they all participated. Is this free speech…a simple conversation. Conversation should not be illegal in America and if the topic is thanking their god, how is that disrespectful.
Trust me, there are many conversations out there I don’t want to hear, but I find the first police and have them arrested for it.
Prayer, individually, and amongst fellow friends and familys, isn’t a crime and is protected, just like any other conversation people have.
Dixie commented:
Look, I understand it. I am as outraged as everyone else. THIS is what we get when government gets involved in charity. I don’t have an argument against the outrage to the unjustice. I have an argument with the way its being presented here. I just wonder why that line was left out and I can only conclude that it was left out because the writer thought that its inclusion wouldn’t generate enough outrage.
Asus commented:
Pray anyway!
seven commented:
The Senior Center is not exactly a Nursing home as the title indicates.
Mennonites left Russia due to religious persecution. America would not be the same had they not brought the awesome red winter wheat. Talk about a religion that prays. Will the gubment make grain companies certify the food producers were secular and didn’t pray for crops to be blessed?
I suggest people start praying out loud. It will see a court. At some pint, I see people not paying taxes if the state wants to interfere with religion. A state not starting a religion is different that interfering with peoples religion as individuals.
Dan commented:
Wait, what part about not requiring senior citizens to join in a syncretistic, potentially heterodox prayer, is wrong? They can still pray in the time of silence. They can pray aloud together if they want to.
seven commented:
Just for the record. As the Muslims come, they will push their devil related call to prayer on loudspeakers outside their Mosques 5 times a day. The PC police won’t dare touch that.
Remember all orthodox Musslims insist Allah had no SON.
Di commented:
Ok EVERYONE contact the Governor his number is 1-404-656-1776
Also you can contact the Healthcare Facility Regulations at 1-404-657-5850 or 1-888-454-5826
I just got done talking with the Governors Secretary and she said he can’t bully this Nursing Home into letting them pray. I told her, he could make a comment about it.
I also said that when he took office he took an Oath to uphold the Constitution and by not saying anything about this is isn’t doing his job.
Chip Bennett commented:
@Cindy:
No, it isn’t misleading; it is irrelevant.
Any federal prohibition against prayer – of any kind is unconstitutional.
The residents at that Senior Citizens’ home have every right to pray – privately or corporately. They have every right to have someone lead that prayer.
Anyone who doesn’t like it can simply choose not to pray with them.
A group of private citizens corporately choosing to say a public prayer before a meal is in no conceivable way equivalent to the US Congress establishing a religion.
Period. End of Story. QED.
Is that last statement a typo?
The constitutionally protected freedom of religious expression exceeds and surpasses the mere freedom of speech, although freedom of speech is equally important to the freedom of expression, with respect to religious freedom.
So, the right to say a corporate, public prayer is more important and fundamental than the right to engage in public conversation.
Robert commented:
This is tyranny of the worst sort.
Just because it is accompanied by a legalese reasoning and not by bashing in of skulls with a rifle stock does not make it any less so. It is indeed coercion, ultimately backed by the threat of governmental force. Yet this same government rabidly enforcing a disputed statutory interpretation looks the other way as we are invaded across our southern border.
And these people concerned about some line being left off of the report, are you satisfied that the senior citizens are ALLOWED to pray silently muttering to themselves?
Chip Bennett commented:
@Dan:
Two points:
1) A Senior Center that has a public, corporate prayer before meals is in no conceivable way equivalent to the US Congress establishing a religion, and
2) That the Senior Center has such a public, corporate prayer before meals in no way compels those who choose not to participate, to do so. Those who choose not to participate in the prayer may simply not pray.
Honestly, I really couldn’t care less if you like or agree with the public prayer. The Seniors’ constitutional right of assembly, speech, and religious expression trump your dislike or disagreement with their prayer.
CathyB commented:
Dixie,
I agree, sometimes GP does leave out relevant info.
I’ve learned to click on the links here to read the full article.
It is absolutely relevant that these seniors still have the right to pray over their meals, just not as a formal, group prayer.
It’s been that way for years in school assemblies and other federally sponsored events.
Even though I am Christian, I don’t believe in praying out loud over my meals; never have.
Lived in too many countries in the military where state-sponsored religion is enforced.
I don’t like to have someone else’s version of prayer foisted upon my meal times, and I don’t believe I have the right to foist mine upon them.
Matt: 5-6
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
~~~~~
Just a word to those who don’t believe Dixie’s concerns are relevant, please understand that when GP does this, they damage their credibility as reporters–and Christians.
Leaving out this one piece of info–when I first read the article my heart was inflamed, until I read the whole article, then I was peeved that I’d been manipulated.
Titus 3:9
But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
Riff Raff commented:
This is Federal money. Should they be praying to Obama?
Chip Bennett commented:
@CathyB:
If the Seniors – as expressed through their coordination of and participation in such – desire to express their religious beliefs through a public, corporate prayer before meals, then they have every constitutional right to do so. Further, a “moment of silence” does not adequately or sufficiently fulfill their expressed desire of religious exercise.
This passage has absolutely nothing to do with this story. Jesus was admonishing the Pharisees for their very public displays of prayer – displays that were intended to draw attention to themselves, thereby robbing God of the Honor and Glory due only to Him.
Public, corporate prayers before meals in no way resemble the Pharisees’ self-serving public displays through prayer, and Jesus’ admonition here has absolutely nothing to do with such prayers.
Personally, I don’t disagree with you. I would rather pray in silence than to have my prayers misconstrued. In my case, my conscience is clear whether I pray vocally or silently, so long as I know that my heart is thankful to God, who has provided.
If you are convicted not to pray openly before meals (or whenever), then certainly and by all means, you should pray privately, and I would not encourage you to do otherwise, lest I lead both you and me into sin by causing you to do something contrary to the conviction of your conscience.
However, how the Holy Spirit convicts your conscience has no bearing or influence on anyone else – especially these seniors who choose to have a public, corporate prayer before meals.
kate commented:
But muslims will be provided with special sinks to wash their feet before prayers–everywhere.
Robert commented:
The federal government takes too much money, then selectively utilizes its power when doling it back to the people from which it came. There is not even any mention of anyone being bothered by the praying at all. This is purely governmental activism, aided and abetted by the politically correct tools and subsidized serfs at Senior Citizens, Inc.
Joe commented:
We need another bloody civil war. I am ready to go!!!
ProLifer commented:
And the unclean (evil) spirits going out, entered into the swine: and the herd with great violence was carried headlong (driven) into the sea… and were stifled (drowned) in the sea.
(Mark 5:13)DRB
Mein Fuhrer, Barack Obama and his faithful companions are swine.
And the spirit(s) in them are driving Americans deeper into the sea of darkness!
We have entered the era of Divine Justice.
Are you in the state of grace?
zmdavid commented:
When did America become a communist regime?
January 20, 2009
Aitch748 commented:
What’s next? Does this mean that if you’re on welfare, you can’t pray before meals in your own house?
Because I can see where this is going: Whenever the feds give you money or subsidize anything, you’re not allowed to pray if you benefit from it. And of course the feds under the Obamacrat regime want to subsidize EVERYTHING and make us dependent upon the government, at which point they can yank our chains in all sorts of ways.
Dan commented:
@Chip
Thank you for your response. A couple rebuttals. You wrote:
“Honestly, I really couldn’t care less if you like or agree with the public prayer. The Seniors’ constitutional right of assembly, speech, and religious expression trump your dislike or disagreement with their prayer.”
Fair enough, but the issue isn’t really my disliking/disagreement of the prayer, but the senior citizens’ potential disagreement. Maybe they are all agreed as to the prayer; that may change my perspective. But what if there are some who do not appreciate the prayer, and would rather pray on their own? Sure, they can just ignore the corporate prayer and pray to themselves, but does it militate against the free exercise clause of the first amendment?
That’s where I’m not sure, but I’m willing to hear arguments. The inclusive corporate prayer is, in reality, exclusive of others; why not have a dinner prayer in the chapel right before the meal? Then it would be completely voluntary.
Heather commented:
Di, who commented is my best friend and sister in Christ Jesus, I will now comment:
This is pure insanity, saying that because a nursing home receives public funding its seniors cannot say Grace to God before meals, this is simply anti-christian atheist political activism to attack Christianity under the guise of separation Church and State.
Atheists love to say that you do not need God or God does not have to exist for them to behave morally and ethically with is a canard.
Let me pose the following example:
I have a daughter 7, I cherish and love, I refuse to take her to the mall because it has become a den of pornographic promotionalism with huge blowups of Victoria’s Secret models topless with just shoes strategically placed to cover their breasts while just in a g string…At Aracrombe & Fitch its Jr. High and High School children in threesomes and orgies in their pictures, yet not one anti god atheist complained about that, but if there is a Nativity Scene in the mall they scream bloody murder!
Its all about their hatred of God and those that serve God, it nothing about church and state.
Furthermore I wish to state for the record that when obama whom I call “obummer” Stated the following “We are not a Christian nation….Followed by “…We are a Nation of non believers” [godless atheists] I can see right through him I see the evil that lurks in his heart and I will state here for the record obummer is an agent of evil and that above quote he made was code to activate his atheist base to go out and attack Christianity by political activism.
May God Bless us all and may we always pray and do God’s will because God speaks to us through our hearts and conscience.
Heather
AJsDaddie commented:
It is insane that in this country founded on religious freedom that the government forces its intolerance of religion upon those it is supposed to be helping.
CathyB commented:
@ Chip.
My belief about public prayer is my personal expression of my religious beliefs, and is as constitutionally protected as your belief in public prayer.
You do not have the constitutional right to foist your public prayer into my private mealtime, if I say that it impinges upon my religious rights.
Period.
That is the crux of the federal ruling and I support it.
Do you know why?
Because the powers which are in charge are subject to change at the next election.
But the laws, once established, are very hard to change and require major effort.
It’s better to have laws which favor NO religion, thus allowing all religions to exist peaceably.
If we have a law which favors one religion, over time, as other religions gain prominence, they can use those same laws to create dissension and insanity, MUCH LIKE WE SEE RIGHT NOW.
Why do you think the Muslim minority gets so much tolerance?
Because we have established laws which favor one religion (Christianity) over others.
LET IT GO, or we will end up a nation forbidden to pray, as all expressions (public and silent) will be outlawed to maintain national peace.
BTW–The Western Muslims’ demand for foot-level washing facilities is not practiced anywhere in a Muslim country, except in the mosques.
Only here and in Europe, where we scream religious equality under the law, have Muslims been able to use our laws to enforce this ridiculous false religious requirement.
Stop making contentions where none need to exist, distracting us from the real fight!
TXBitty commented:
Seems to me Senior Citizens, Inc had to bid for this contract. Wouldn’t this have gone thru and been approved by City Council and the Mayor? Let’s see the contract. I bet they could make an amendment. Are the reimbursements by the government given to the city and then to Senior Citizens Inc? Looks to me like The Mayor and Council Regular Meetings start out with Prayer and the Pledge to Allegiance right after Call Meeting to Order (looking at 2006 pdf)
Something smells with Senior Citizens Inc. Love to see how much they pay the people in charge..is that where the donations are going?
Kevin P commented:
O.K. – so now that we have govt. funded health care – does this mean you cannot receive the Sacrament of Last Rites at your govt. funded bedside before they kill you with their death panels?
Heather commented:
PS
I forgot to mention that on this site here is an ITunes ad for Christina Aguilera having her dressed as a devil no one is complaining about that, where are the atheists complaining about satan????????????????
I fid that add and her news video Bashing God Jesus, and the Catholic Faith revolting but I have not demanded it be removed, Yet these filthy vile atheists will not allow Grace to be said in a nursing home! GRRRRRRR UGHHHHHHH
Heather!
AJsDaddie commented:
@Cathy
“You do not have the constitutional right to foist your public prayer into my private mealtime, if I say that it impinges upon my religious rights.”
Wrong. You have freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. If you don’t want to participate in the prayer, don’t, but the mree act of others practicing their religious beliefs is not an impingement on your constitutional rights.
Yours is a perfect example of the inevitable conclusion of Political Correctness: some sort of right to not be offended.
There is no such right, Cathy.
Chip Bennett commented:
@CathyB:
I am in full agreement with this statement. You have every right not to agree with, or to participate in, public prayer. Likewise, you have every right to voice such belief.
Oh, yes, I do. I have every right.
Why?
Because the prayer is in public. You are choosing to eat your meal in public. I’m not coming into your home (or other private space) and forcing you to join in a corporate prayer.
Further, because your claim is both intolerant of and infringing upon my freedom of religious expression.
The Constitution grants me the right to assemble in public with my fellow believers, and to join them in a corporate, pre-meal prayer, as an expression and exercise of our religious beliefs.
Conversely, the Constitution does not grant you the right not to be offended by others’ exercise of their constitutionally protected rights.
If you don’t want to join us in our public pre-meal prayer, the solution is simple: don’t join us.
Pray silently on your own. Don’t pray. Get up and leave. Do whatever you want.
Your freedom of religious expression has no right to trump my freedom of religious expression.
Period.
We’re not talking about mere laws here; we’re talking about the US Constitution – the First Amendment, to be specific.
The whims of any given administration cannot legislate in a manner that violates the Constitution; thus, your fears in that regard are specious.
I disagree wholeheartedly.
It is in society’s best interest to encourage principles that maintain a cohesive and peaceful society.
One such principle is the sanctity of life. We have laws against murder (which derives directly from the Ten Commandments of Judeo-Christian law). Other religions do not have similar mandates prohibiting murder (see: Jihad).
Another such principle is the centrality of the family unit as the basis for society. This concept also derives from Judeo-Christian laws and principles. A direct correlation exists between the degradation of societal cohesiveness and peace, and the destruction of the family unit as the central basis for society.
This nation was founded by Christians, as a Christian nation, for the betterment of its citizens. The First Amendment guarantees the right of all citizens to exercise their religious beliefs, and prevents the government from establishing any religion (or denomination) as the formal, recognized religion of the country.
The First Amendment does not, however, preclude We The People from enacting laws, even ones derived from religious law, for the betterment of society.
Chip Bennett commented:
@Dan:
First, there is no evidence anywhere that any residents opposed or were by the pre-meal, public prayer.
Second, even if any were, the mere act of holding a public, corporate prayer does not compel such persons to join with the prayer. Such persons have the right to eat without praying, to pray silently (or openly) on their own, to get up and leave during the prayer, to eat elsewhere – basically, to do whatever they want.
Who prays in a separate location, and then goes to the dining room?
Families pray around the dinner table. Larger congregations (in church, etc.) pray together in the room used for the assembly/meal.
Why should these seniors have to change their practice?
Again, if anyone doesn’t agree with the public prayer, such a person is free not to participate.
Chip Bennett commented:
@CathyB:
What laws favor Christianity over other religions?
Name one – just one. I dare you.
No such laws exist.
Chip Bennett commented:
One more @CathyB:
So, because we are here, arguing against an allegedly government-mandated prohibition of public prayer, the end result will be more government prohibition against prayer?
Does not follow. Does not compute.
No, if we remain silent in the face of these seemingly minor offenses, only then will the government become emboldened to act further.
If we stand up in opposition to unconstitutional actions of the government, we will protect our constitutionally protected rights, rather than see them eroded away, one Senior Center at a time.
Cindy commented:
@ Chip,
You are clearly WRONG if you believe are “constitutional rights” have a “pecking order of importance” or where one “constitutional right” is more important or “far exceeds” another. Each “constitutional right” are equal amongst themselves. While many of them have been “water-downed” like the gun rights and freedom of speech, but there is a reason for that and I won’t get into it because it would start a fued. To put it simply, the less we practice a certain inalienable right the more restraints are placed upon it.
Heather commented:
If Anyone is interested, feel free to read my Blogs and visit my website and follow me on twitter http://heathercuttie.wordpress.com/
Thank you
–Heather
firewifem commented:
I’m so with you Bingo 6 (and others). I am a public school teacher. I keep a Bible in my desk drawer (and have, yikes!, read it at school). Know the law and your rights. I never violate the law, but I absolutely exercise my rights.
We must beat these people back.
Chip Bennett commented:
@Cindy:
I speak as a person of faith. My right to exercise my religious beliefs freely is, bar none, the most important right protected by the Constitution.
Because I believe in the next life, absolutely nothing is more important in this life than serving my Lord and Savior, and passing on my faith to my children.
Take away the internet so that I cannot participate in lay press. Cut out my tongue so that I cannot speak. Imprison me so that I cannot assemble. Even then, I can still pray to and worship my Lord.
aprilnovember811 commented:
And why is it, everyone who can help remove him for his lack of natural born status, continues to raise their voice in horror to what the Obama communist regime is doing, but remains silent about his foreign birthplace?
This is where their silence will get us. But that’s ok. Keep aiding and abetting the liar. Why is it fair that American seniors have to suffer at the hands of a foreign born despot? Because too many so called patriotic Americans will not challenge him on his lie.
Chip Bennett commented:
@aprilnovember811:
You keep chasing down that eligibility train.
While you’re tilting at windmills, the rest of us will be doing more important things, like actively working to stop Obama’s agenda, and fighting against clear infringements of our rights, as in this instance.
Newsflash: There is nothing we can do to “help remove” Obama from office, until we un-elect him November 2012.
Joanne commented:
This is what happens when good men do nothing.
mmm commented:
” The sacred rights of mankind are not to be rummaged for among old parchments, or musty records. They are written, as with a sunbeam, in the whole volume of human nature, by the hand of the divinity itself; and can never be erased or obscured by mortal power”, Alexander Hamilton.
Our natural rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are natural rights from God not given to us by the government and therefore cannot be taken away by the government.
Dennis commented:
Try and stop them from praying, if they want to.
Stuart commented:
Mr. Rutherford said: “We can’t scoff at their rules.”
Yes you can!
It’s called civil disobedience. Ever hear of a guy named Martin Luther King?
Let them cut the funding, starve the old folks. I would wager that as soon as the story got out the amount of donations you would receive would more than compensate for the filthy federal lucre.
What is next? Will food stamp recipients now be forced to be atheists or get their food stamps pulled?
Judy commented:
Are they being forced to pray? If not, then they should be allowed to pray. It’s Freedom of Religion not Freedom from Religion. Who cares where the meals come from? If you are forcing someone to not pray that isn’t separation of church and state. That is oppression of Freedom of Speech…
Opaobie commented:
I fail to understand the logic of the knee-jerk argument posed by the “local officials” prohibiting prayer by the residents. There isn’t even a law they can cite. The nonsense of “Separation of Church and State” has become an illegitimate restriction on EVERY activity remotely related to God or religion…except Islam and Atheism and Witchcraft and Secular Humanism and earth worship. Similar cases have gone to the Supreme Court with 100% success of removing the restrictions. A lawsuit with very high punitive damages might be in order. The very rights many of these residents fought to preserve for others are being denied to them unconstitutionally and illegally, and there are plenty of law firms who would file the suit pro bono. I would tell the residents to pray and tell the “local officials” to “BRING IT ON !”
Mike H commented:
Years ago when I was serving in Vietnam we joked about disobeying an order by saying “what are they going to do for punishment, send us to Vietnam? Same deal here, what are they going to do if the rule is defied, send them to a nursing home and forget about them?
HAL E ARMES commented:
I don’t see it as such a big deal. They only stopped the open prayer, not the individual prayers. If it was unanimous that everyone present wanted the open prayer they should have it, but chances are not everyone has the same belief or prays the same way or to the same name/god, so the individual private prayers may be more appropriate. Nobody has been forbidden from praying and they have a moment of silence in which they can pray as they choose without interruption.
seven commented:
Going up the food chain. At the meat packing plants, Muslims are suing and getting time off for their 5 prayers a day and a prayer room. They are demanding ramadan and other concessions. Notice the atheists never mess with the Muslims? Muslims are striving to not handle pork in a meat plant. I suspect they should stay in Somallia if they can’t deal with the animals that a plant butchers.
Carol commented:
It is a big deal for these seniors. My father, a WWII vet, lived in assisted living for a while before his death. They had the choice of praying or not. That choice was a result of the sacrifices they made fighting for this country. They’re called the Greatest Generation for a reason. And to deny them that choice is not only communistic, but inhumane. It’s a slap in the face to all who have fought and died for our freedom, or what’s left of it.
Chip Bennett commented:
@HAL E ARMES:
Again, what part of “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof” is difficult for you to grasp?
The chosen means of exercise of these people’s religion is public, corporate pre-meal prayer.
Irrelevant. What anyone else wants or chooses to do is completely irrelevant. Anyone who doesn’t want to participate in the prayer, simply doesn’t participate.
Who are you, and what gives you the right, to dictate to these people how they should (and should not) exercise their freedom of religious exercise? Who are you to deem what is, and what is not, “appropriate” religious exercise?
So long as these people, in their exercise of religion, do not infringe upon anyone else’s freedom of religious expression, then it’s none of your, my, or (most importantly) the government’s business how they exercise their religion.
Do you have reading comprehension issues, or are you presenting a straw man?
1) Very clearly, whomever leads the public, corporate prayer has been forbidden to carry out that public, corporate prayer.
2) That nobody has been forbidden to pray privately, during a moment of silence, is irrelevant. These people are being denied their right to exercise their religion in the manner of their own choosing – i.e. a public, corporate, pre-meal prayer.
No, they cannot “pray as they choose”, since their chosen manner of prayer – i.e. a public, corporate pre-meal prayer – has been forbidden.
Andreas K. commented:
What laws favor Christianity over other religions?
Name one – just one. I dare you.
No such laws exist.
That is correct Chip.
I can show you plenty of laws that favor the “usual suspects” (aka mohammedans), especially in Europe.
Why else would the UK allow sharia courts (now already more than 80)?
If I would demand the same “court” as a Christian… no, as a non-mohammedan, they’d tell me to shove off and die.
As for “intruding”… if it’s in public space, tough luck. I’m an atheist and I wouldn’t feel harrassed by their praying in public. They are free to do so. As long as they don’t try to force their religion on me or others I don’t mind them. As long as they don’t demand special rights simply because they belong to religion XYZ, I don’t care.
Both examples are never done by Christians today, or by Jews, Buddhists or Hindus. The only ones who do this are the mohammedans. They force their religion on others and they demand special rights. Yet nobody says anything there.
When I visited Westminster Abbey, primarily to hunt for the grave of John André, there was a call to prayer over loudspeaker. The priest (or whatever it’s called in the Anglican church) made a short prayer after that. I am an atheist. I don’t believe what that priest believes. In fact I find his believes laughable.
But I stopped walking around, faced him, listened and let him finish.
Why?
Because why not? They let an atheist into their church and thus it’s perfectly fine for me to be tolerant towards them. Respect and tolerance always work both ways, not just in only one direction.
LynnRN commented:
In the government-owned nursing home where I work, one of the things that is stressed is that we are to develop a plan of care that includes ALL the resident’s needs, & that includes spiritual. We are to ENCOURAGE them to practice their religion if they so desire, to the extent that we do whatever we can to facilitate that. We call their priest, pastor, or other spiritual counselor on their behalf. Weekly religious services were held for those who wished to attend. The idiot who says this is part of their “operational guidelines” is DEAD WRONG! If a resident asked me my views on religion, I was at liberty to answer the question as long as I was not the one to initiate the subject. This whole thing is BUNK! Typical bureaurocrat who doesn’t know what he’s talking about, trying to show how “impartial” he is.
Sen. Fuller Bull - D commented:
The old folks should tell them to keep their slop and throw it in the floor. With this new healthcare in place the food probably has cyanide in it anyway.
Bem Benjamin commented:
I really do not understand. Which Federal money are we talking about here? A Federation that was founded principally on God? A Federation that premised its growth and progress on relying on God? This may signal the end of this Federation. Is there no one left in the United States of America who knows history, who knows the Law, and who knows there is a declaration of Independence that ends with: “And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.”???
Kathy from Kansas commented:
Kevin P
May 10th, 2010 | 9:51 am | #94
“O.K. – so now that we have govt. funded health care – does this mean you cannot receive the Sacrament of Last Rites at your govt. funded bedside before they kill you with their death panels?”
VERY good point.
Kathy from Kansas commented:
“When did America become a communist regime?”
January 20, 2009.
Scott commented:
obama is the antichrist!
Gaggin commented:
When did America become a communist regime? If I remember the date correctly, it was January 20, 2009.
Heather commented:
Watching people here quibble here about this issue is both fascinated and troubled me. People here are trying to for lack of a better description out dazzle each other with their implied intellect. Many comments here are ignoring the central issue and hand. This is not about any constitutionality issue. Suffice to say it is about the propagation of evil, the destruction of Christianity in America and worldwide. Its simple, destroy prayer and people’s freedom to pray and you destroy Christianity, no not totally but you erode it more than enough to make satan happy. The enemy here is not Cathy or anyone else commenting here. The enemy is Mr. Obama and until people wake up and realize that things will get much worse. While Obama may not be the antichrist he may very well be an agent for him. Until people here have the intestinal fortitude and moral courage to fight him to fight his liberal army of evil trolls he will gain power and make things far worse.
For all the commenters here seeing things through a prism of intellectual arrogance and I do not mean that as an insult or bashing but just as an alternative viewpoint. I offer you the following:
Let us use the intellect of Leonardo Di Vinci, who in my personal opinion was the most intelligent human being in recorded history. This is a man who’s’ intellect was not limited in one area like Einstein’s was with physics, he was an inventor, a doctor, artist, musician, engineer, etc. all with a genius level… quite dazzling for pure intellect, now we have God who’s genius is omnipotent, but I will not deal with the Genius of God but the Wisdom of God, acquired knowledge since God first Created Adam.
No one knows the amount of people born from that time until the present gazillions lol, yet God remembers every minute detail of every single person that He created every piece of hair white and gray, every singly aspect and sin of all our lives,
Now, which do you think is the superior, the Wisdom, or intellect? The answer is Wisdom, for God is wisdom, all intellect flows from acquired wisdom, without wisdom there cannot be no intellect, intellect is a by-product of wisdom.
Many erroneously say God is intelligent design, wrong God is Wisdom, intelligence is the gift God gave humankind.
Matthew: 18: 1-10 Best makes my point here
At that hour the disciples came to Jesus, saying: Who thinkest thou is the greater in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus calling unto him a little child, set him in the midst of them, And said: Amen I say to you, unless you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, he is the greater in the kingdom of heaven. And he that shall receive one such little child in my name, receiveth me.
But he that shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe to the world because of scandals. For it must need be that scandals come: but nevertheless woe to that man by whom the scandal cometh. And if thy hand, or thy foot scandalize thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee. It is better for thee to go into life maimed or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thy eye scandalize thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee. It is better for thee having one eye to enter into life, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. See that you despise not one of these little ones: for I say to you, that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.
The “He” here that is scandalizing us is Mr. Obama, he is the cause of this rapidly proliferating anti Christian atheism that has occurred since he became president, unless we fight the obama agenda there will be no prayer at all, let is not as Christians fight each other let us fight the real enemy, feel free to respond pro or con to my comment, I thank you for your time. God Bless You All And God Bless America!
–Heather
Debbie Gackenback commented:
I just heard of this tonight while watching the news-I am so appalled and disgusted-I feel like driving up to GA and protesting this and I havent protested since I was in my 20′s-don’t you wonder what happens to these old folks if they are caught praying? Will their meal be taken from them? Perhaps they will boot them out on the street. We must be their voice. I’m going to plan a trip. I just can’t stand by any longer and do nothing. We are doomed as a nation if we allow this to continue….
bertogem commented:
“Food-stamp tally nears 40 million, sets record.”
Does this mean that it’s a violation of the Constitution to pray over your food in your home if it was bought with government food stamps? What if you’re a government worker and are paid by the Feds (may Allah have mercy on your soul) does that mean you can’t pray over food you bought? What if you buy religious stuff or donate to religious charities with Federal Reserve notes? Is that a violation of the separation of church and state?
Costa commented:
Debbie Gackenback
May 10th, 2010 | 5:37 pm | #130
I AM WITH YOU! I have a day off from work Friday but you betcha I have a sudden urge to grab a huge sign and pickett out front of this nursing home and it wont take me long to get to it.
“Honor thy Father and Mother” and I am going to pray for someone’s Mother or Father in that place! Pains me to say because I miss them so much but I am so glad my parents are not here to witness any of this. My heart would break.
AuntieMadder commented:
I posted this comment at another blog site that shared this CFP story and want to share it here, too.
~~~~~~
If it weren’t for the installation of footbaths with Federal money (read: OUR money), this might not be so upsetting. As it is, however, there’s no way around seeing that our Federal govt is using our money to promote Islam and enforce the rights of Muslims to live by Sharia law in the US. At the same time, the Federal govt is using our money to deny Christians their rights live by Biblical standards and rules, thus denying the Judao-Christian foundation of the USA.
With close to 80% of Americans – the people whose money the Feds use to fund the meals – calling themselves “Christian,” how can the Feds say that Christian prayers shouldn’t be spoken before these meals? Most Christian Americans, in fact, are generous people who wouldn’t deny a meal to an atheist, who says no prayer of thanks, or even a Muslim, who prays to a false god. Most Christians would choose that the atheist and Muslim believed differently, if it were up to him/her, but still wouldn’t want them go hungry. (When it comes to the latter, for good or bad, I can’t be counted among those generous Christian Americans as I’d rather my money be used to ship the Muslim back to the Middle East where he or she can be fed or not by his/her own kind.) With that in mind, denying the senior citizens the right to pray aloud before taxpayer funded meals is even more unjust.
It gets scarier…
Looking at the possible future of a socialist USA, a country in which all of our earned money is collected by the Federal govt and the resources the money buys then divied out to us in a way that the govt sees fit, will Christians (and, of course, Jews, because where there is religious persecution, Jews are always among its victims) be prohibited from saying grace before every meal because every meal is Federally funded?
AuntieMadder commented:
Oops! When I feebly attempted to dazzle you with my brilliance at #134, I hadn’t seen that Heather had already been here, commenting on behalf of Leonardo di Vinci.
Chip Bennett commented:
@AuntieMadder:
I just figured Heather was trying to be ironical – or at least, recognized that she succeeded wildly in that regard, whether or not intentionally.
Liberty is a Christian Word commented:
Federal Funds? Where in the world do Federal Funds come from? From the majority Christian tax payers of the United States of America!
The government has no difficulty taking money from people who pray, but won’t allow people who receive the money to pray? It’s not the governments money! It’s the peoples money! And the majority of the people are Christians!
Liberty is a Christian Word commented:
There is no such thing as separation of church and state. The state/government can make “no rules regarding religion.” The government cannot interfer with people’s religious freedon, even if the food they are eating is paid for by the goverment. The government still cannot tell
people to pray or not to pray before they eat the food. Making such a rule is unconstitutional.
Liberty is a Christian Word commented:
It’s NOT the government’s money!
It’s the PEOPLE’s money!
The government only exists because of the benefice of the people! We are the government!
Go Green, Recycle Congress 2010!
CathyB commented:
@ Chip
Do you hear yourself?
Because the prayer is in public. You are choosing to eat your meal in public. I’m not coming into your home (or other private space) and forcing you to join in a corporate prayer.
The Constitution grants me the right to assemble in public with my fellow believers, and to join them in a corporate, pre-meal prayer, as an expression and exercise of our religious beliefs.
Conversely, the Constitution does not grant you the right not to be offended by others’ exercise of their constitutionally protected rights.
If you don’t want to join us in our public pre-meal prayer, the solution is simple: don’t join us.
So a senior who doesn’t feel this way about public prayer should now be forced to leave the public meal hall after they paid for their meal, the same as everyone else?
Wow. Just wow.
You sound so brave, here in America, land of the legally-protected religious freedoms.
“They don’t have to listen to the prayers, my rights come first.” That’s the EXACT same argument you would hear from a devout Muslim to defend Sharia.
Well GP, I hope you’re happy.
You got your hits and your controversy.
And in so doing, you’ve exposed the underbelly of insanity that plagues the far-far-right;
Which underbelly scares the majority of sane people everywhere.
If you’re trying to stump for change, don’t expect articles like this to do anything other than whip the fanatics into a frenzy.
That’s exactly what the Mullahs do on their Friday night sermons. Whip the religious zealots into a frenzy, then they go out and wreck havoc on the defenseless majority.
Did any of you ever wonder why those protests against the Danish cartoons happened on a Friday?
Look at every major Muslim demonstration in the past years. Most have happened on Friday, after calls to prayer…
What makes you (GP) any different than them?
Oh that’s right, you’re Christian and they’re Muslim.
You follow the true God and they follow Satan.
Yeah. Right.
Well then, followers of Christ–What would Jesus do?
Did Jesus force others to hear him pray publicly — or did He teach us that prayer is a private, personal communion with Heavenly Father?
Matthew 6 — Pray in our closets, then he teaches us the Lord’s Prayer.
Luke 6: 12 — And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.
Matt 26: 36 — Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder.
Mark 14 — Jesus tells his disciples to seek out a private guest chamber to spend the passover (Last Supper), where he teaches them about the sacrament.
And what does Jesus have to say about public prayer?
Matt 6 : 5 — And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
To conclude:
Whether someone is allowed to hold a public prayer in a public setting is a non-issue.
When we allow precedent to be set favoring a certain sect of Christians (which is what this is, Chip–so there’s one example right there), we then set ourselves up to have that precedent used to foist bad law upon ourselves.
I’m sorry if the nuances of this argument don’t make sense to certain of you, so I leave you with one final scripture.
Hebrews 5: 11-14
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be buttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Chip Bennett commented:
@CathyB:
So, now I’m convinced: you do have reading-comprehension issues.
Where on earth did I ever suggest that someone who doesn’t want to join in the prayer “should be forced to leave the public meal hall”? I never said or implied that. Nice try, though.
What I actually said was that such people are simply free not to join in with the corporate prayer. Such people are free to exercise any of a host of options, including ignoring the prayer altogether, praying silently, eating without praying, leaving during the prayer, or eating elsewhere. All such options are available to such people, to be exercised at their sole discretion.
Er, no – but you are quite the useful dhimmi (go look up the term, before you accuse me of name-calling), aren’t you?
Sharia law doesn’t request tolerance (which is all Christians request), but rather submission. Sharia would require all persons to partake in the prayer to Allah. Christianity niether requires nor even requests all to pray to God.
No, all he has really exposed here is that you are a left-wing nutcase, who doesn’t understand the first thing about the founding of our country, or the freedoms protected by our Constitution.
Well, for one, when our rights are trampled, Christians don’t react by breaking the law, and killing innocent people. We work within the law, exercising our constitutional rights of freedom of speech, assembly, and redress of grievances.
Thank you, also, for confirming what I suspected: you are no Christian.
Do you have no concept of context? You quote the Bible, but do you have any understanding of it?
Here are some other (and much more relevant) passages:
Do you get the point? There are times to pray privately, and there are times to pray corporately. Both are appropriate, and biblical.
Only to a non-believer, for whom the right of religious expression has, apparently, no meaning.
What precedent? What “certain sect of Christians” is being favored? Please, be specific.
All I see is a group of believers choosing amongst themeselves to hold a corporate prayer to God before their meal. I see no denominational or sectarian creed being forced on anyone.
Ah, one of the favorite insults of the arrogant liberal: claiming that their arguments are too nuanced for troglodyte conservatives to understand.
I have news for you, Miss Hubris: your arguments aren’t too nuanced, they are absurd and specious.
No worries. Most of us here have no problem whatsoever discerning between good and evil – even with respect to you.
CathyB commented:
Chip–I could rebutt your rebuttal, but it would just create more contention and division, which I don’t want.
So I leave you with this thought.
~~~
I grew up in a small Western farming town, riding my horse in the foothills and through the orchards.
There’s nothing better than the sweet juice of a sun-warmed apple running down your chin while the smell of a sweaty horse whirls through your nostrils.
It was a great place to be a kid.
Most of the people in the town were native to that area, and had never lived anywhere else.
My mom, and a few others lived in California first (in the 60′s and 70′s), before moving to that area.
Back then, our town had a ordinance which mandated a minimum 1/2 acre lot for housing.
One of our neighbors owned quite a bit of farmland scattered around us.
He decided that he was going to give a 1/2 acre to his son for a wedding present (very nice of him!).
This lot was in the middle of other houses and he really couldn’t use it for pasture or anything except growing hay.
He also had an elderly mother who wanted some independence, but needed help with things.
Since they were going to build a house on the lot anyway, they decided they wanted to build a little cottage in the back, for his mother, so she could have company and people nearby.
Sounds very reasonable and Christian to want to do that.
Except that under the existing town by-laws, he could only build one house on the lot.
So he applied to the town council for a variance.
Based on their past experiences watching the farmlands of California become vast tracts of housing developments, the “California” people went to the town council to fight the variance.
The man was furious that these “Californians” would try to tell him what he could and couldn’t do with his land.
My mom and the others tried over and over to tell the “locals” that once the variance was granted, then the very real possibility existed that a builder could come in and use that variance to modify the existing town by-laws, destroying the town’s equilibrium.
The “locals” pooh-poohed the “Californians” and said “That’ll never happen here–we won’t let it.”
A few years ago, I went back West to visit my mom.
I drove through the town where I grew up.
The hills and orchards where I’d ridden my horse were covered in houses.
Seems about 30 years ago, during the building boom, a developer had come to town, found out about that variance and forced the township (under threat of an expensive lawsuit) to allow him to carve up that land into little 1/4 acre lots.
Soon other developers followed and the town lost its character under the weight of all those “outsiders” moving in to take advantage of the cheaper housing.
So now they struggle to keep taxes low, while having to build more schools to accommodate all those new children, keep roads paved to keep up with the increase of traffic and try to find cheap land to develop into a shopping mall to try to keep rateables down.
Worst of all, the children of that town don’t have the joy of riding though the trees and hills, feeling the sun and gaining a testimony of the greatness of God.
All because one man had to have “his way.”
So go ahead and fool yourselves into thinking; “That’ll never happen–we won’t let it.”
But as someone who has lived in many lands, and different places in this great nation, I have seen what happens when one way of thinking is favored over another.
You are establishing a precedent which will be used against you later–to the detriment of your children and your children’s children.
Stop with the foolish dividing of “me” vs. “you” and realize what really matters!
~Restore the balance of power by repealing Obamacare.
~Get rid of Congress members who don’t believe in upholding the Supreme Law of our land–the Constitution.
~Reduce the national debt.
~Protect our borders by upholding the current laws of the land and deport ALL illegal immigrants.
~Insist that the laws apply to everyone and that Congress cannot exempt themselves from their own legislation.
Go Tea Party!!!
Dennis commented:
Good thing they reversed their policy.
After all, we reside in a country covered by federal money. Next they could ban praying anywhere in the US.
Stephen commented:
I am an Atheist, and this is not what we are about. We only seek not to be infringed upon. Not to infringe upon others. I support the right of a student to pray in school. I do not wish to be led in a prayer. I support anyone who wishes to pray or worship to do so. I do not want to be compelled to do so. Liberty is about freedom of each of us to find what gives our lives meaning, hope and fulfillment. It most certainly is not about suppressing the beliefs and rights of the people whose sweat and blood built this nation.
Etaoin Shrdlu commented:
Read the story carefully (and get it from a proper news source, not just some blog). It was a private Caterer, not the government, which banned prayer. The Caterer is claiming a State government policy required it to (Georgia is denying this). The only role the Federal government has in this is that it’s supplying the subsidy, and the private Caterer screwed up the law.
Sadly, this is a common mistake. Some people think that anytime the government is involved prayer must be banned. Not true. It’s only government sponsored, government promoted, government mandated prayer that is banned by the First Amendment. Truly voluntary prayer (not led by or called for by the government) is a protected Constitutional right. Or, as the old joke goes: if you want to see prayer in school, just hold a pop math quiz!
Meanwhile, please stop relying on “backyard gossip” as if it were truth!
Bo Patterson commented:
Until we as American’s put a stop to it. We have allowed ourselves to be bullied by anti-christian networks for years. We have been urged to stand up for our rights only to have many say……..aww it will never get that bad. WAKE UP America it IS that bad. We MUST rebel and we must start with those that we elect to represent us. If you know that someone isn’t a Christian, Don’t put them in office. If they do not live up to what is expected of them once they are in office DO NOT put them back in. And when we do have Christian politicians running for office, get out and support them. Show them that we do care. Today is the time for the appathetic attitudes that we have held for years to be done away with.
Ken Hall commented:
Number one it’s not the fed’s money it’ is the tax payer money, I was in the Navy for four years and and I pray for my food all that time
and one stop me for doing it. When we get in our 80′s or 90′s we need all the pray. and if they like tell then to kiss a rock thank you
Ken Hall commented:
and if they don’t like tell then to kiss a rock thank you Ken